Last week someone asked a great question about the limits of where NFPA 20 starts and stops.

In a similar vein, what are the limits of where NFPA 22 and NFPA 24 start and stop for a typical system with a water storage tank, fire pump and private mains?

We had a question at work yesterday as to whether NFPA 24 or NFPA 22 applies to pipe before a water storage tank. It'd be helpful for us to understand these limitations in addition to the conversation last week.

Thanks in advance!

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In the NFPA series of standards, is there a requirement for a water line supplying private fire hydrants to have backflow protection?

I am working on a project where the fire marshal is requiring double check detector assemblies to be installed on six private fire hydrants. The line serving the hydrants has no other connections to it.

Thanks in advance.

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I am running 8” and 4” water storage tank fill and suction lines above ground in an exterior utility yard. 

Is lateral and longitudinal bracing required for aboveground piping supported on pipe stands located outside of a building, in an exterior utility yard?

Due to underground conflicts with spread footing foundations the underground piping has to be routed above ground to the final location and connection points on the tank. The pipes are supported by 1’-6” non adjustable pipe stands attached to slab on grade.

This project is located in a seismic zone and the seismic force factor does not exceed 0.5Wᵖ and I am using ACI 355.2 qualified anchors as required by NFPA 13 2016 Edition. Sections 9.3.8, A9.3.8, 9.3.8.1, and 9.3.8.2. The pipe stands I am using are following the NFPA 13 2016 Edition prescriptive method detailed in sections 9.2.6.3.2, 9.2.6.4.2, 9.2.6.4.4.1, and 9.2.6.4.5.1, I’ve also attached a detail for clarification. Thanks in advance!

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If I have a PIV installed, is it required to be tied into a fire sprinkler system?

I work at a campus style facility with a fire water supply loop for fire sprinklers.

We have a couple of buildings that do not have a fire sprinkler system, however, there is a PIV outside the buildings that are in the closed position. I am assuming they were installed for "future use" assuming a fire sprinkler system gets installed.

Is there an NFPA code reference that requires the PIVs to be "in service" or used for their intended purpose, or are we code compliant with them being "for future use"?

I do have a concern with responding fire units incorrectly assuming that there is a fire sprinkler system in these buildings due to the PIVs being installed.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks!

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Are you required by NFPA 24 to enter a building underneath the foundation, or can you enter a building with the the fire service main from the side of the building?

Many are under the impression that due to the fact all illustrations in NFPA 24 show the fire main entering under the building, footing/foundation, that this suggests that it is a requirement.

Please can someone shed some light on this?

Regards.

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I'm working with a city inspector who is adamant that we add a second non-rising stem valve (NRS) in the fire sprinkler service main just before the building. The first valve being in the street at the live-tap location with the roadway box.

Is a valve required on the service main before the building?

The requested location would place the valve under the sidewalk, accessible by T-handle wrench only, prohibiting reliable supervision of any kind.

I can't seem to find any language in NFPA 24 that I can use to argue against the second unsupervised valve. I don't see any value in the position the inspector has taken and requested a copy of the city ordinance requiring the additional valve.

Installing the second valve wouldn't be a huge deal but certainly seems like an unnecessary opportunity for an unsupervised valve to get closed or fail. I would like to hear what others in this community think and if anyone has something to offer.

Thanks in advance.

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Can HDPE ISO 4427, PE100 SDR 9 PE be used for underground water service pipe (dedicated for fire water), even though it carries no FM Approval?

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I have question regarding fire pump capacity.

In my situation the water department is requiring a city tap size to be 2 pipe sizes larger than the fire protection backflow preventer.

In my project, I was using a 4" backflow and 400 gpm fire pump so my underground/city tap would be required to be at least 6 inches.

The AHJ is requiring me to increase the area size in one of my remote areas. So, my sprinkler demand now becomes 582 gpm. To avoid having to use a 500gpm fire pump (with a minimum suction size of 6-inch) and increase the underground to 8-inch, could I still use the 400 gpm fire pump to supply the 582 gpm demand?

This comes out to about 145% of the pumps rated capacity.

I have never come close to the 150% mark before and just want to see what others think. If the underground size wasn't required to be 2 inches larger I wouldn't even think about it and go with the 500 gpm pump.

Thanks in advance.

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We have a building that is constructed. It has a very deep footing.

The contractor originally submitted an Ames In-Building Riser, but it's too deep for the in-building riser in the building's (essentially) existing condition.

They proposed using C900 to come under the footing, without a sleeve, going below the 12" footing and then stubbing up into the riser room without thrust blocks.

We have concerns about restraint and a change of direction underneath the foundation.

NFPA 13 applies and C900 is a permitted material, which is what the contractor has suggested makes it acceptable.

Is routing C900 under a building footing, changing direction, and then stubbing into the building acceptable?

We are doing the install for a new building. The fire sprinkler underground comes in the building and they are requiring ductile pipe be used inside the building up to the backflow preventer.

Can anyone cite literature for this?

I know NFPA does not require the use of back-flow prevention, but am interested in the code basis for the pipe type until the backflow preventer.

Thanks in advance.

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Does plastic underground pipe need to be sleeved when going under a road or driveway?

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We have a proposed fire hydrant in our county that will have pressures ranging from 210 psi to 250 psi according to the engineer designing the underground line.

My Chief and I are looking into this in regards to NFPA standards/applicable code, and are concerned that the high pressure could injure firefighters or damage equipment.

Is there a maximum permitted pressure that a hydrant can be, per code?

Thanks in advance.

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I have a job where the plans have a detail of the underground fire service entry into the building that shows us bolting to friction clamps. I've always used the 90-degree I bolts on the flange to shields.

Looking for some detail on this - are there other methods I should be considering? Is this acceptable?

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​When is a sleeve required (or not required) at the base of a sprinkler riser when it comes through a floor?

Is there a requirement I'm missing in NFPA 13, NFPA 24, or the plumbing code?

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When is C900 PVC allowed below buildings before the transition to metallic pipe for spigot stub up?

I often see municipal rules to keep non-metallic pipe no closer than five feet from the building foundation. 

Where does this requirement come from?

I have no problem with this practice but would like some code justification to discuss this with contractors.

Thanks in advance.

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Can a commercial pool be used as the required secondary water supply to a high-rise sprinkler system?

The 2019 IBC/CBC Section 403.3.3 requires an automatic secondary water supply in certain seismic design categories. This is typically met by installing a dedicated tank that meets the minimum demand for 30 minutes.

I have a developer asking if they can run a feed line to their 100k +/- gallon commercial pool so it can serve this purpose.

Outside of the engineering challenges and value engineering their team must address, I'm wondering if this arrangement is even allowed. I cannot find anything in IBC/CBC, NFPA 24, NFPA 13, etc. that wouldn't allow this. Any help is appreciated.

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We have an oil storage warehouse project requiring a ceiling density of 0.60 gpm/sqft over 3,000 sqft.

This is basically 30 sprinklers using 1,900 gpm (sprinklers), and 500 gpm (for hoses).

The municipal system is set up with three pumps that run sequentially based on residual system pressure. Each pump is larger than the last. We require Pump 3 to be in operation in order to get the required flow and pressure.

We have conducted a flow test flowing two hydrants, and have not been able to kick Pump 3 into action.

Assuming a K16.8 sprinkler has a 3/4" orifice, 30 heads would only equal a 4" diameter opening. If we can't activate the appropriate pump by opening multiple hydrants, how will we be able to achieve the required flow during a fire?

Has anyone encountered a supply system like this before?

I know that a tank and pump is a solution, but I'm looking for other options. Thanks.

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We are working on a project where the site engineer is asking if tapping into the underground fire line is acceptable to supply a water cooling line to a water source heat pump unit with a 3-inch line.

I'm having trouble finding where it is not acceptable and thought I'd reach out to the knowledgeable members here.

This site has a combination potable/fire line as shown in the picture below.

Should we require them to tie into the 8-inch tap from the potable water line upstream of the fire protection vault (blue line in the drawing)?

Or is it OK that they tap into the fire supply line downstream of the fire protection vault (red line below)?

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Working on a new resort hotel and it is necessary to have buried pipe before and after a sprinkler control valve.

Is it allowable by code to substitute C900 PVC pipe with Tyco Blazemaster pipe?

According to the installation guide of Tyco Blazemaster it could be installed underground.

If not, which material can be installed instead of C900 because 4-inch is the smallest size for this pipe?

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We have an project serving the textile manufacturing industry. We are looking to install a fire hydrant (500 gpm minimum) in proximity to the building.

What is the minimum and maximum distance these hydrant(s) should be located from the building?

The project is not under IBC / IFC criteria, only subject to the NFPA series of standards. 

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When coming out of a pump room with underground feed which then connects to an underground loop with a bullhead tee, are isolation valves required on the bullhead tee?

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We are inspecting an existing fire sprinkler building for an upgrade to an Extra Large Orifice (ELO) system.

We performed a hydrant flow test and noticed a 14 psi static loss between the hydrant, 185-ft of 8-inch ductile, 2 elbows and 8 feet of elevation rise to the supply side of the RPZ backflow preventer.  We recorded 73 psi at hydrant and 59 psi at the number 1 test cock on the RPZ while static.

I spoke with the water authority and they confirmed no meter or check valve on the 8" fire line; it is straight into the valve room plus 2 elbows. The building is 20 years old and the pump test provided 120% of rated capacity.

Any idea how the static pressure inside the building is 14 psi less?

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I've been seven years in the chair, and the most thankless job I encounter on every project is - reviewing the site utility plan and picking it apart.

I've now made my own rule that I will only point the civil engineer's mistakes once, early in the project, and when it comes time to stack the riser, pressure test, etc, all I can say is "I pointed that out to you on Aug 11 2020 email."

Am I going about this the wrong way? SHould I even be investing energy into correcting the engineer with the stamp?

Recent example is a two story building with concrete tees. We're adding third and fourth floors from new structural members. The underground man took the site utility and started digging. Check valve was exposed above ground (supposed to be in pit) and the FDC was connected to the underground on the system side of the backflow preventer. Now he has to dig it up, cap the tee after the backflow preventer, and run it around and inside the building. The job requires a small pump (CL1 manual wet standpipe), and the underground man wasn't happy. All I was doing was point out wrong installations before it was too late.

I'm always left thinking, "this isn't even in my scope of work, but it affects everything downstream."

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We have an account that failed the five year FDC hydrostatic test. The Fire Department Connection is a remote, freestanding FDC. The Fire Marshal is claiming that there is no leakage, however, will not give a pass or fail. 

NFPA 25 (2017) and others reference hydrostatic tests.

6.3.2.1  hydrostatic test 200 psi for 2 hrs or at 50 psi in excess of the maximum pressure where maximum pressure is in excess of 150 psi every five years. (manual standpipe systems and semi-automatic dry standpipe systems, including piping in the FDC)

Annex  6.3.2.1* that mentions a minimum leakage existing under test pressure.

Section 13.8.5 FDC five year hydrostatic testing shall be tested at 150 psi for 2 hrs. There is no mention of minimal leakage allowed.

What is this allowable leakage?

NFPA 24 (2010) Private Fire Mains & Their Appurtenances Section 10.10.2.2.1 requires 200 psi or 50 psi in excess of the system working pressure whichever is greater and maintain that pressure at +/-5 psi for 2 hrs.

Is that my allowable leakage, so that if we lose less than 5 psi or gain no more than 5 psi for 2-hours, that we pass? Wasn't sure if the existing 5-year hydrostatic for underground has leakage that is measured differently from an inside hydrostatic test.
 
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Is there a standard spacing for private fire hydrants?

No applicable code for this project, but looking for guidance in what would be common under NFPA 24, NFPA 1 / 101, and/or the IBC. Thanks in advance.

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