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In the stairway, on the 2nd floor only of 4-story wood-framed condo (NFPA 13R), do we require a sprinkler on the “extended landing” ? In the attached image Blue is the sprinkler in question, red are the required sprinklers.  The main floor requires coverage because it has two entrances / exits from the stairway. The upper floor has full protection of the entire area. The 3rd floor does not require protection as the 4th floor does not have a extended landing. So this only applies to the 2nd Floor.
Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
3 Comments
Regarding: IFC 905.4 Location of Class I standpipe hose connections.
Class I standpipe hose connections shall be provided in all of the following locations: 1.in every required interior exit stairway, a hose connection shall be provided for each story above and below grade plane,. Hose connections shall be located at the main floor landing unless otherwise approved by the fire code official. Does this mean a standpipe connection is not needed at the ground floor? I've brought this up to numerous design/build sprinkler subs and they all say a connection is required at the ground floor. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Long question - in essence - is Fire Flow considered on top of a flowing sprinkler system?
Recently there was a great discussion on the forum here about whether a water storage tank size needs to include Fire Flow in addition to sprinkler demand. There were some great points made (www.meyerfire.com/daily/must-water-storage-tank-include-site-fire-flow). I have just come upon a project where we do have a municipal water supply, but it tapers off very steeply. The flow test in the area was 52 psi static, 25 psi residual at only 650 gpm. This would put the available Fire Flow around 712 gpm at 20 psi for the site. In order for the AHJ to reduce the required Fire Flow under the IFC, the building(s) nearby need to be sprinkler-protected. This would bring down the Fire Flow requirement to 1,000 gpm at 2-hours, for this setup. The sprinkler system isn't designed yet, but we'd estimate around a 550-650 gpm demand with a fire pump. This gets really interesting based on the prior discussion. When the fire department shows up on site during a fire, and then starts to pull water, is this Fire Flow in addition to the flowing sprinkler system, or considered separate? In other words, is the 1,000 gpm (for 2 hours) for Fire Flow on top of a 600 gpm demand for sprinkler (for 60 minutes)? If the water storage tank needs to meet the demand of the sprinkler and Fire Flow separately, then the calculation comes down to ~300 gpm needed to fill the shortage on Fire Flow, multiplied by 2-hours. That's a tank in the ballpark of 35-40,000 gallons. If the water storage tank needs to meet the Fire Flow as the sprinkler system is operating, that's a flow of around 1,600 gpm to fight a fire. That's as much as ~900 gpm x 2 hours to a ballpark of 100-115,000 gallons. Huge difference. I can't find any relevant code that stipulates one way or another, only that the tank must supply the sources it is connected to. Am I looking at this correctly? I see sprinkler and Fire Flow needing to be met by a tank that they're connected to, but is the Fire Flow robbing the sprinkler system, or vice-versa? Thanks so much for reading. This is obviously TLTHFR (too long, thank-you-for-reading). Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Recently a client determined that they no longer want diesel fire pumps to be provided on their projects. They want electric fire pumps with a diesel generator to ensure reliable power. (Please do not ask why state this desire.)
If a diesel generator is provided strictly for the electric pump assembly, what mechanism do you utilize to turn the generator on when fire pump needs to start up? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What is the correct procedure for determining the quantity of the reserve amount of foam, such as FP 3%, for a plant?
I've looked specifically through NFPA 11 and NFPA 16, and can't determine it. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In NFPA 72, does Pathway Survivability apply only to Emergency Communication systems?
In the 2019 Edition of NFPA 72, Section 12.4 stipulates required protection regarding various levels. Section 24.3 Pathway Survivability defines requirements for different levels of declaration. Chapter 12 applies for all fire alarm wiring. However, the title of Chapter 24 is for Emergency Communication systems. Does pathway survivability apply only for Emergency Communication systems only? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe When using ESFR sprinklers to protect a low-piled storage/miscellaneous storage that is equivalent to an OH2 curve: what minimum operating pressure for the sprinkler do you use?
Do you just go by the nearest chart in the later storage chapters and go with the closest to your situation (so like 35 for a K16.8 and 15 psi for a K22)? Or do you just go with 7 psi like you do a standard sprinkler? The listings do not specify a minimum operating pressure except to say "per NFPA 13". Code references are always appreciated. Thank you for your time. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a standpipe demand of 750gpm. I am providing a fire pump for the system demand.
Should I be selecting a 750 gpm pump or a 1000 gpm pump, based on adding a safety factor (or other reasoning)? My sprinkler demand is less than 750 gpm so I would only need to provide the 750 gpm for the standpipes. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In the NFPA series of standards, is there a requirement for a water line supplying private fire hydrants to have backflow protection?
I am working on a project where the fire marshal is requiring double check detector assemblies to be installed on six private fire hydrants. The line serving the hydrants has no other connections to it. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe UL does large scale testing reports conducted under paid private clients, and has commissioned some pretty large tests on certain fire sprinklers with a specific protected target and issue report.
How many AHJs would accept a performance-based design or something submitted in compliance with the old Chapter 21 on Alternative Fire Protection? Do you have recommendations or concerns with these alternative approaches that you wish to have addressed? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a 3-family building with parking garage and three floors over parking for a total of four floors.
According to the IBC, a standpipe is required; my question is - is the standpipe required in all stairs? We have two stars which are less than 30-feet between the stairs. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What is the recommended practice to protect Battery Energy Storage Systems (BESS)?
NFPA 855 states that if the BESS is not a walk-in unit, then fire suppression is not required. How do you define a "walk-in unit"? If any suppression is not required in side the unit, is there any requirement for systems protecting the outside? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A thread to discuss more on Post-Indicator Valve requirements from our blog hits series. Original 2019 article link: www.meyerfire.com/blog/post-indicator-valve-required-for-my-project  Our customer stores pieces of metal u-channel strut and all thread rod that are stacked on steel cantilever racks. There are no pallets. Packaging is by wrapping of steel bands. Everything is non-combustible.
Since the commodity is non-combustible, Table 435.5.1 for high piled racking does not apply, correct? It seems to apply only to combustible commodities. Therefore the 12-foot high limitation triggering high-pile storage requirements would not apply, right? We hope to avoid the requirements of Table 435.5.1 since the building does not meet the fire department access door requirements even though it does meet the requirements for automatic sprinklers as well as smoke and heat removal. I can't find a code section to cite to AHJ for what is not required on non-combustible commodities. Like proving a negative. Any suggestions would be appreciated! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What are the requirements for sprinkler coverage for baffled ceilings? In Florida we use the 2016 edition of NFPA 13. I know that the sprinklers have to be within 12 inches of ceiling for heat collection. The contractor says the pictures shown are correct. I think they need to place a 12 by 12 above the baffle for heat collection? I found 8.6.3.4 Minimum Distances Between Sprinklers.
If sprinklers are installed above and below the ceiling, a baffle needs to be installed around the lower sprinkler to avoid cold soldering. Cold soldering occurs when discharged water from the sprinkler above cools the thermal element of the sprinkler below, preventing or delaying its activation in the event of the fire. The required baffle will prevent that water from contacting the thermal element of the sprinkler, thus circumventing the possible issue. Talked to some folks and we need the product paperwork as it may mention sprinkler coverage.  Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
Does NFPA 13D require trapped air to be removed in a sprinkler system?
In the 2016 NFPA 13, Section 7.1.5, Air Venting - a single air vent for a sprinkler system, with a connection conforming to 8.16.6, shall be provided in each wet pipe system utilizing metallic pipe. I am using CPVC with anti-freeze in most residential systems. Is there a code requirement for a vent for what I'm doing? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How do I, as an AHJ, address contractor scope limitations?
Project where an installer presents plans to replace 328 sprinklers and is changing some pipes out. Many times the installer says they're only responsible for pipe from the riser - not for a hydrant flow tests. What is the best way to navigate this to be sure that there's still sufficient water available? It could be a one-for-one replacement, but what if there's significant work being done - what code basis is there to make sure than an effectively-new system can work with today's water supply? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We had a tip last week about being able to comment and share ideas from our articles on the Blog and our hits series - and we love the idea. The hope is to open a thread once-a-week concerning the Blog topics so we can expand and discuss in greater detail. My hope is that this doesn't take away from the Forum at all (again, just once a week), but allows opportunity for further discussion where it's wanted.  This thread is for Components of a Fire Sprinkler, with our high-quality image above (right-click to download and save).
Thanks everyone! - Joe This is something that has always confused me.
NFPA 2019 Section 10.2.7.3.1 states that continuous or non-continuous obstructions more than 18" below the deflector have to meet Section 10.2.7.3. The only big requirement I see is that items over 4-ft in width need a sprinkler underneath them. Does that mean that a sprinkler 18.1" located directly above a square duct that is 3'-11" wide does not need to worried about and the perceived obstruction of the duct is fine by code? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are you allowed to have a valve off the standpipe feeding a hose valve that is not in the stairwell?
Working in a high rise building with two stairwells. It is dual fed with combination riser standpipes. On the tenant space there is a hose valve and they want a butterfly on the feed for the hose valve, always thought that was not allowed but couldn’t find it. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Occasionally, additional hose valve connections are required due to the failure of meeting a 150-ft / 200-ft travel distance to a hose connection.
Can you put a hose valve connection on a sprinkler system without a standpipe? How do you reflect this in a hydraulic calculation? A most-remote standpipe would require 500 gpm in a standpipe calculation. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project where a foam-water system is installed for two generator rooms. The rooms are on the same floor and some distance from each other, which is also on the same floor as the fire pump, which is served by a vertical foam bladder tank.
I've read here before that it's possible to have one proportioner serving both of them, but is it possible to have one deluge valve to serve both rooms? If so, do I need to add motorized butterfly valves to regulate the flow direction? Really appreciate the input. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am currently evaluating a 7-story building that is being partially renovated and has an existing standpipe system (2 standpipes), but no sprinklers. My scope was to add sprinklers to the renovated areas, creating a partially sprinklered building.
The lack of pressure is leading the AHJ to require a fire pump due the 100 psi required for the standpipe system. While the standpipe requires the fire pump, hydrant flow tests indicate that there may be sufficient pressure to supply a sprinkler system. My question is two-fold. Is there really such a thing as a non-combined sprinkler/standpipe system where they are both required? They both get their water supply from the same source. Also, can I evaluate supplying the sprinkler system through a separate riser that tees off before the fire pump, while the fire pump supplies only the standpipe, significantly reducing the size of the pump? The pump would be sized for 750 gpm total, 500 gpm @ 100 psi to the remote hose connections, and 250 gpm to the second standpipe. What would that sprinkler calculation look like? Would the sprinkler calculation remove the hose stream allowance and replace it with the 750 gpm to consider the flow to the pump/standpipes? The flow potential is there based on the hydrant flow test just not the pressure for the standpipes (and it's close for sprinklers). I'm just wondering if I can give the client and rest of the design team options. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe You all are simply the best. Thanks for bein' in the club.
I have a question in regards to hydraulic calculation and hose stream allowance being added to the calculations.
When and why are they added to your hydraulic calculations? Is this specifically required under NFPA 13 somewhere regardless if a standpipe is required or provided? Any insight or clarification would be greatly appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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