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How to Include Suction Tank in Hydraulic Calc?

7/1/2022

5 Comments

 
We are bidding a job that may possibly need a 1,250 gpm rated fire pump due to not enough flow from the city. Our test was 43 psi static, 35 psi residual at 872 gpm. We will need to include a ground suction tank.

How do I correctly include or simulate a ground suction tank in my hydraulic calculations?

We use the Sigma Hydraulic Calculation program.

Thanks in advance.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
5 Comments

Working Clearance for Fire Pump Controller?

6/15/2022

6 Comments

 
Is there a code or standard that specifies floor clearance in front of a fire pump controller cabinet?

I am installing a fire pump in an existing building which has a controller with a transfer switch. Of course the fire pump room size presents clearance issues.

I have clearances I need for sprinkler pipe, but I do not know the working clearances required in front of the cabinets. 

I do have door swing clearance, but was wondering about a working clearance. Thanks in advance.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
6 Comments

Include Hose Allowance in Fire Pump Size?

5/19/2022

5 Comments

 
We have a two-zone fire sprinkler system, one is wet, the other is dry-pipe. There are no inside hose valves, just a small NFPA 13 building.

Does the fire pump size need to accommodate hose allowances?

The sprinkler calculations have no inside hose allowance. We would typically apply the hose allowance at the city tap, which would be upstream of the fire pump. 

Thanks in advance.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
5 Comments

Diesel Pump Req' Relief Valve for Governor Fail?

3/28/2022

7 Comments

 
Does a diesel-powered fire pump require a full flow relief valve to prevent over pressurization due to a RPM governor failure?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
7 Comments

Setting for Circulating Relief Valve on Fire Pump?

3/23/2022

5 Comments

 
Under NFPA 20, Section 4.20.7.1: 

The circulating relief valve shall actuate below the opening set point of the pressure relief valve to ensure cooling of the pump during churn operation.

NFPA 20 Handbook:
​
The pressure setting of the circulation relief valve should be well below the pressure relief valve setting but above the maximum suction pressure.

Based on this, how do I properly specify the circulation relief valve setting that is installed on the pressure relief valve discharge line if the pressure relief valve set point is 175 psi?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
5 Comments

Use Test Header Butterfly for Throttling Flow?

3/1/2022

7 Comments

 
When doing an annual test today for large fire pumps with a combined test header, I was told that most inspectors throttle and send water to the pitot gauges by using the butterfly valve inside the pump room and keeping the control valves wide open outside on the test header.

I disagreed with this approach, as my mentor in the industry taught me to first charge the test header and then get your pressures by opening each outside control valve individually to get your pressures. He said this is so that you don't burn up the rubber on the inside test header (normally-closed) butterfly valve. He said it happened to him in the past and then the building owner is left with a leaking test header control valve and the danger and costliness of a test header full of water.

Is there a correct way (by code) to get your pitot reading off the hose monsters outside (what I mainly using) or is charging water one way or the other simply a matter of preference?

I hope this makes sense.

I understand some test header control valves are OS&Y but most all the outside components I come across are the test hose connections that open and close via the gate valve.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
7 Comments

Distance Between Heater and Diesel Fuel Tank?

2/22/2022

4 Comments

 
Is there a minimum distance requirement between a unit heater and a diesel fuel tank within a fire pump room?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
4 Comments

Dedicated Service to Diesel Fire Pump Controller?

2/16/2022

7 Comments

 
There's a project in our jurisdiction that is a warehouse with a detached fire pump building.

They are proposing to feed the controller for the diesel fire pump (in the detached fire pump building) from the service in the main warehouse building.

Are there any relevant fire codes or standards that require the controller to be fed from a separate service?

Or, at least fed from a service that is "dedicated" to the fire pump building?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
7 Comments

Run Fire Pump & Backup Simultaneously?

2/3/2022

10 Comments

 
We have a newly-installed electric (duty) fire pump, and a back-up diesel fire pump. 

Each pump has a 100% required flow capacity for the system (750 gpm each) for the building.

Is it OK to run the two pumps simultaneously during testing - which would result in a 200% flow?

The diesel pump is only intended to be used during power interruption/worst-case, but not with normal power online.

During testing, we release water in the test line (flow meter) - the pressure went down and triggered the cut-in pressure of both the electric and diesel pump which makes it run simultaneously (electric first, then the diesel a few seconds later).

Does this not have a water hammer effect on the system?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
10 Comments

Vertical Turbine Fire Pump Max Suction Length?

1/20/2022

7 Comments

 
Working on a project with an underground water storage tank, where the water level is under the pump suction inlet. The pump type is a vertical turbine pump.

Is the a maximum vertical length of suction pipe for this type arrangement?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
7 Comments

Why Low Pressure at 150% Test for Fire Pump?

1/18/2022

14 Comments

 
Hello everyone -

I have a problem with two identical fire pumps rated at 145 psi at 2,500 gpm.

When testing for 0% flow and 100% flow the pump gives the correct pressure, but, when testing 150% flow the pressure drops dramatically, it has to show 125 psi and the result is 92 psi.

The pumps has a 10-inch flange suction an as NFPA allows it was installed a 10-inch pipe directly to the pipe, no suction reducer, having 16-ft (5 m) long of distance for one pump and 19'-6" (6 m) for another one, the second one with two 45-degree elbows installed more than 10 times the diameter from pump suction.

The tank is 23-ft (7 m), full of water. The test outlet is installed on the other side of the tank, so the flow does not fall over the suction inlets. The antivortex inlet has a plate of 7.5 inches above the floor.

The pump discharge is 10 inch.

The flow meter is 8-inch diameter with 8 diameters before and more than 5 diameters after.

Any idea why the pressure at 150% is so low?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
14 Comments

Listing for Pilot-Operated Pressure Relief Valve?

1/13/2022

10 Comments

 
Happy New Year everyone!

We are upgrading protection for one of our Crude Oil Storage Facilities for a major oil and gas clients in the Middle East region. We have 4,000 gpm diesel driven pumps for fire water use. There are 8-inch pressure relief valves provided, per Section 4.20 of NFPA 20-2019.

Section 4.20.4.1 (Type) reads as "pressure relief valves shall be either a listed spring-loaded or a pilot-operated diaphragm type."

My interpretation of this section is that the listing is required in either of these cases, whether it's spring loaded or pilot operated.

However, it's being challenged by those who are reading word-to-word meaning and saying that the listing requirement is only applicable for spring-loaded, and not for pilot operated relief valves as the sentence is separated by "or" along with the latter "a". If the letter "a" is not there, then I'm convinced with my interpretation that the listing is applicable for both cases.

Also, I checked the handbook but it does not provided any further detail.

Has anyone had any insight/experience as to whether the listed requirement applies to pilot-operated relief valves?

I appreciate any further detail or discussions on the above with reference to code interpretations. Thanks!

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
10 Comments

Grid-Connect Underground Water Storage Tanks?

12/16/2021

7 Comments

 
I'm performing a shop drawing review of underground concrete storage tanks, to be used for firefighting.

We have six tanks arranged into two rows of three. 12-inch pipes connect the three tanks per row toegether, and one 12-inch pipe connects the two rows at one end.

It makes a U-shape flow path down one row, and back up the other.

Should two more linking pipes be added to form a complete grid, and allow more paths for water to flow?

Should these linking pipes be provided with vortex plates?

Thanks in advance!

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
7 Comments

Requirements for Location of Pre-Action Valves?

12/15/2021

6 Comments

 
We have to move pre-action valves for two different pre-action systems from their original location in the fire riser room to another area of a warehouse. The location where they are inteded to be placed is protected by ESFR sprinklers for high-pile storage hazards.

Is there any requirement to place the valves and panel in this location?

Do they have to be placed in a room to avoid mechanical damage, or some type of enclosure?

Can they just be in the warehouse without any code violation (we are under both FM and NFPA suppression standards)?

Thanks in advance.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
6 Comments

Monitor Fire Pump/Riser Room Temperature?

12/14/2021

7 Comments

 
Is there a requirement to monitor a fire pump or fire protection sprinkler riser room's temperature with the fire alarm system?

It is clear from NFPA 72 that the device needs to be added to the fire alarm panel if it is present.

NFPA 13, 14, and 20 don't seem to have a need to monitor the room's temperature.

From NFPA 72 (2016 Edition): Section 17.16.5 Room Temperature Supervisory Signal - Initiating Device. A room temperature supervisory device shall indicate a decrease in room temperature to 40 degrees (4.4 C) and its restoration to above 40-degrees (4.4 C).

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
7 Comments

What is 150% Water Level for Vertical Turbine?

11/24/2021

5 Comments

 
We have a project where we're using a vertical turbine fire pump.

NFPA 20 makes reference to a 'water level' at 150% of pump rated capacity. What exactly does this 'water level' mean?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
5 Comments

Requirements for Doors on a Fire Pump House?

11/22/2021

7 Comments

 
We have a pump house that is 250-ft away from primary building. I was told that we have to maintain a 42-degree temperature inside the pump house.

Although we are in Jacksonville Florida it still gets down to the mid twenty's here and there.

The doors are in really bad shape and need replaced to hold in the heat.

What are the requirements for replacement doors on a pump house? Do they need to be vented?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
7 Comments

How Long is Impairment for Fire Pump Transfer?

11/18/2021

2 Comments

 
What are time delay intervals associated with a fire pump's energy source transfer?

Is a 2-minute wait time long enough before notating an impairment when the pump doesn't start operating at peak again after shutting down the main power on an annual pump test?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
2 Comments

Freestanding FDC on Hotbox Feeding Pump OK?

10/28/2021

4 Comments

 
Hello lovely forum. Recently there was a question on taking the FDC off the fire pump bypass as long as it was downstream of any control valves on the pump bypass.

[Moderator Note: link to that question is here: https://www.meyerfire.com/daily/allowed-to-tap-fdc-into-fire-pump-bypass]

Building off that question, I have seen freestanding fire department connections being feed into an exterior hotbox that has the backflow preventer. This setup is before the feeds enter the building, and before going to a fire pump inside the building (and control valves before the pump).

Is this a violation of code, for having control valves on the FDC line before the valve header?

Thanks for your time.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
4 Comments

Other Rooms Allowed Off Fire Pump Corridor?

10/21/2021

10 Comments

 
For Fire Pump rooms located in a basement, that is accessed through a common corridor, is it acceptable to have other rooms (like plantrooms, storage, etc) off the same corridor coming from the staircase to the Fire Pump Room door?

We would provide the required fire resistance rating for the stair, the corridor, and the fire pump room. I'm assuming no storage would be allowed within the corridor itself.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
10 Comments

Allowed to Tap FDC Into Fire Pump Bypass?

10/8/2021

6 Comments

 
Is there any reason in code (NFPA 13 or 20) that you cannot tie a Fire Department Connection (FDC) line to a pump bypass line as long as the FDC line is downstream of all control valves on the pump bypass?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
6 Comments

Fire Pump Start/Stopping with Jockey Idle?

9/20/2021

8 Comments

 
To me, it makes more sense to locate a backflow on the suction side of a pump. However, I have recently run across a facility with the backflow downstream of the pump (discharge side).

The main fire pump controller is connected between the the first check valve and the backflow preventer.

The jockey pump is connected after the backflow preventer.

Here's the problem: when the first check valve fails, the main fire pump continuously starts & stops because the pressure is bleeding off they the relief valve while the jockey pump remains idle.

Is this an acceptable scenario?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
8 Comments

How to Size Tank for Surge Suppression?

9/10/2021

6 Comments

 
We design fire protection systems for large industrial plants with a large area network running in the kilometers.

In such case there could be chances of surge due do sudden closure of a deluge valve, check valve, or fire pump. We do not have time/expertise to carry on surge analysis on software.

I have heard about using tanks for surge.

How would we go about sizing an anti-surge tank?

Is there any basic guidelines based on fire water flow rate/pump discharge pressure to get first cut sizing of a surge  protection tank?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
6 Comments

Combined Domestic/Fire Pump for NFPA 13R?

9/9/2021

9 Comments

 
I'm reviewing a apartment building that meets the requirements for an NFPA 13R system.

My questions: A pump is going to be required for this project and they are proposing to use a booster pump on the incoming waterline at the property line to reach the required pressure for domestic and fire demands.

Is a combined domestic/fire pump like this allowed?

It would be a private pump.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
9 Comments

Is NFPA 20 Suction the Minimum for Service Size?

9/6/2021

6 Comments

 
I am looking at a project that shows 6-inch underground lead-in to a riser room. The specs however call out the install of a 1,000 gpm pump. NFPA 20 shows that for a 1,000 gpm pump suction sizing should be no less than 8-inch diameter.

Is a 6-inch even allowed for this application?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
6 Comments
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The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

Discussions are solely for the purpose of peer review and the exchange of ideas. All comments are reviewed. Comments which do not contribute, are not relevant, are spam, or are disrespectful in nature may be removed. Information presented and opinions expressed should not be relied upon as a replacement for consulting services. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a small commission for orders placed elsewhere.

  • Blog
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    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
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