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My area's adopted building code references NFPA 13, the 2016 Edition.
Should I even consider looking into the later versions of NFPA 13 (2019-present)? If there are major differences, how do we reconcile following only 2016 since the building code references it even though it may be outdated now? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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Are townhouse complexes (3 or more side by side and separated by fire barrier) considered R-2 or R-3?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a project where the Specifying Engineer has noted to have a small hose connection for periodic (maybe every 6 months) building maintenance use to wash down a water intake filter.
They have specified that it be fed from the jockey pump upstream of the jockey discharge check valve and connection to the fire pump connection, so it would seem that it would not really affect the fire protection system or fire pump discharge. However, I don't think it is a good idea, and I think a separate pump for building maintenance should be provided. Looking to see if there is any code reference I can use for backup as common sense doesn't always work or maybe I am wrong. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I work for a local fire department that does plan reviews for fire protection systems. We are reviewing a project that requires 40,000 gallons of stored water. They are proposing using multiple fire water tanks and eight 5,000-gallon tanks.
While NFPA does not restrict the use of multiple tanks, I would like to see fewer tanks than eight. I am more inclined to allow two separate tanks at the most. However, I wanted to see what others thought and if there was a standard understanding or practice to number or size of tanks to the total needed water demand. Thanks for any help. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I hear so many times that if the fire alarm panel dies, the entire building's fire alarm system must be brought up to current code.
Can anyone educate the world on when building fire alarm systems must be completely upgraded to the current code? The International Existing Building Code (IEBC) Section 6 lists all possible combinations. Level 1, level 2, and Level 3. None of them require a full upgrade to the current code when the main panel hits its end of life. If a system was to need to replace all items in its location with a different system, reusing locations and wire, it would not meet a Level 3 requirement alone and would simply be using new equipment or fixtures that serve the same purpose. Can someone give me an actual code path that requires a full upgrade in this scenario? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A 40,000 sqft, F-2 Occupancy, single-story metalworking facility of IBC Type II-B construction is not required to be provided with automatic sprinkler protection due to the lack of sufficient combustible loading in the IBC.
However, the same 40,000 sqft single-story facility of IBC Type II-B construction of a Mercantile (M) occupancy must be provided with automatic sprinkler protection due to sufficient combustible loading to warrant sprinkler protection. Unfortunately, IFC Appendix B does not distinguish between these different occupancies with regard to Fire Flow except that a 75% reduction is offered to the M occupancy for sprinkler protection. Since no sprinkler protection is required for the F-2 occupancy, can't it be treated the same as occupancies requiring sprinkler protection and provided with sprinkler protection - allowing for the 75% reduction? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have an R-2 convent with existing 120v smokes in the sleeping areas and they are installing a new FACP including low frequency notification in the sleeping areas.
I’ve read the commentary for IBC 907.5.2.3.3. Would you say based on this section that they would need to either replace the existing 120’s and install system smoke detectors, or change the existing 120’s to a combo audio/visual model? I'm trying to determine if the intent behind this is that the existing 120v smoke alarms now would also be required to activate visible signaling as well. Appreciate your input! Moderator: Link Directly to IBC 2021 907.5.2.3.3 Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What is the design criteria for exterior openings protected by a water curtain in IBC 2021?
Section 705.8.2 (protected openings in exterior walls) says that opening protection is not required when the building is sprinklered in accordance with NFPA 13 and when the exterior openings are protected by a water curtain approved for that use. "Water curtain" is not defined in the IBC or NFPA 13. NFPA 13 (2019 edition) gives design approach requirements for water curtains in Section 19.4.3, but none apply to protecting openings in exterior walls. What is the intention of the IBC here? Window sprinklers? Exposure protection sprinklers? Is there a different NFPA standard that covers the design of this water curtain? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I don’t often dabble in NFPA 30, so I have some specific questions regarding the protection of flammable and combustible liquids that I am having issues finding straight answers to.
I have a sprinklered general-purpose warehouse that stores flammable liquids in container sizes less than or equal to those indicated in NFPA 30 (2021) Table 12.8.1. The total quantities (MAQs) of these containers are also less than those shown in Table 9.6.1. NFPA 30 (2021) Section 12.8.1 indicates that “The liquid-container combinations listed in Table 12.8.1 shall be permitted to be stored in a general-purpose warehouse without quantity limits if protected in accordance with Chapter 16." An older version of NFPA 30 (2015) Section 12.8.1(1) indicates that if “the applicable provisions of NFPA 13 for 20ft high storage of Class IV commodities based on the storage configuration of the liquids” is used for protecting these containers, no additional protection criteria is required barring the storage arrangements are in line with the rest of the Section 12.8. My questions are as follows (per NFPA 13 -2021): 1. If combustible liquids are stored in amounts under the MAQs stated in Section 9.6.1 (and IFC) are the additional requirements of Section 16 (NFPA 30) required, no matter what? 2. If combustible liquids are stored in container sizes less than or equal to those set forth in Table 12.8.1 (NFPA 30), are the requirements of Section 16 still required? 3. Will the storage of these commodities within liquid storage cabinets negate the requirements set forth by Section 16? The bones of the matter is that I am having a hard time finding a section directly indicating that the requirements of Section 16 are not required. Most if not all sections I can find only indicate that Section 16 is to be used when something is stated. Thank you all ahead of time. As always this forum has always been a wealth of information. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Hi all, I am looking for a sanity check on a water supply calculation for water main with significant elevation delta.
We ran a hydrant test on a dead-end run for a new development that is fed from a city main at the top of a hill. The two furthest hydrants were tested, the flow hydrant at the dead-end and pressure hydrant mid-way down the hill. City Main = EL 500 Pressure Hydrant = EL 450 Flow Hydrant = EL 400 Proposed FFE = EL 425 The Freeman Flow equation bases hydrant flow on pitot pressure (PSIG) which is relative to the hydrant elevation. To calculate R20 (ie 20PSIG) at that hydrant elevation we use a ratio of PSIG values from the pressure hydrant normalized to 1.85 power multiplied by the hydrant flow rate from Freeman equation. It is at this point that I begin second-guessing: the ratio that is being used does not take into account the elevation delta as it is PSIG. I have calculated the HGLs for the three pressures based on converting PSIG at its respective elevation. My initial thought is that the pressure hydrant PSIGs (based on EL 450) should be converted to PSIGs at the flow hydrant (ie based on EL 400) by means of HGL - Hydrant Elevation and then using those "adjusted" PSIG static/residual values as the scaling terms for R20 at the flow hydrant. Then to get a theoretical R20 for a future hydrant at FFE I would repeat the same process, this time normalizing pressure hydrant static/residual HGLs to FFE elevation, holding the Freeman Flow value constant, and using a "new" R20 = 20PSIG at FFE. On the face I get reasonable values, but would like to get feedback from the group. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is fire-rated construction ever enough to not warrant sprinkler protection?
Is there a NFPA 13 section that would validate this one way or another? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe As many/most of us know, there's an internationally standardized pictogram (symbol) for exit signs that's common in many countries worldwide. However, it's not yet common in the US, likely due to what appears to be a misconception that the IBC/IFC only allows "EXIT" lettering. IBC/IFC Section 1013.5 requires internally illuminated exit signs to be listed to UL 924. (There's a different section on externally-illuminated exit signs, 1013.6.1, that specifies "EXIT" lettering, however, the vast majority of exit signs are internally-illuminated and therefore not subject to anything under 1013.6 due to that section's scope clause.) UL 924 was revised a while back to allow the internationally standardized pictogram, including in lieu of "EXIT" lettering. (see section 42 of UL 924) Therefore, my impression is that a UL-listed internally-illuminated exit sign that uses the internationally-standardized pictogram complies with the IBC/IFC. (There are such products currently on the market.) Are UL-listed internally-illuminated exit signs using the pictogram in compliance with IBC/IFC? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe  This is a corner exit stair in a 2-story Type II-B building. There is 2-hr fire separation per client request (only 1-hr by code). There's one column in the corner that only supports exterior precast walls and roof structure. Does it need to be fireproofed? I would assume it doesn't. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe  Does a sprinkled tenant space Group M with an occupant load of 51 and sprinklers separated by fire-rated walls from the rest of the mall need automatic fire detection?
I think a pull station or the flow switch to active the notification would be enough. The existing plans show detection in the main sales area, in the electrical room and where the power supply for the NAC is located. According to my analysis the only mandatory detector should be the one in the power supply room. Wouldn't you agree? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How far should firewood be stored from a single-family home within city limits?
Is there an operable mandate for this within the fire code? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Tire Storage without Sprinklers Whenever the storage of tires is brought up, I often see people focusing on the area, volume, and storage height requirements that necessitate sprinklers.
Looking through IFC requirements to fully understand these triggering design factors, I found the Section “3206.10.1.2 Nonsprinklered Buildings: Aisles in nonsprinklered buildings shall be not less than 96 inches (2438 mm) wide.” Am I correct in understanding that this would require all aisles in between tire racks, as well as a clear walkway around tire rack to be at least 8’ wide? This is something I have never seen in an unsprinklered tire storage setting and would effectively require sprinklers for any efficient for of rack tire storage. Am I understanding this section correctly or am I missing something? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a bunch of new houses going in. Some are along an existing street, and some are around a newly formed cul-de-sac.
How do I determine the number of hydrants, how far apart they are, and the maximum distance to any of the homes? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How have people been addressing the IFC (2021) Section 907.5.2.1.3.2 requiring 520Hz single/multiple station smoke alarms in residential units being addressed?
It sounds like there are no 520 Hz smoke alarms available on the on the market meet these requirements. We have a roughly 300-unit building and the AHJ is pushing us to put smoke detectors with sounder bases in each unit instead of 120v smoke alarms. We know this could be done, but the cost impacts would be substantial and the future maintenance and inspections in the building would be very difficult. This is the first time we've seen this be pushed by an AHJ, so looking for information on how others have handled this. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Suppose on-site water storage for firefighting is required, and an existing tank is on-site sized for the existing building.
Can I add a second tank on site (not connected to the first tank) and just size it for the additional water required for the second building? Ex. A larger building requires a 10,000-gallon tank, while a smaller building requires a 5,000-gallon tank. Can I just install one new 5,000-gallon tank (10,000-5,000 = 5,000 gallons)? Or would the tanks need to be connected so there is no shortage of water? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A resident in our area is planning to install ground-mounted solar for an existing home, along with storing the energy produced in batteries. The area for the batteries (ESS - Energy Storage Systems) is a storage room which is accessible only through the inside of their garage. Would this storage area still be considered a "living area" and thus subject to the max 20kWh of ESS per the IFC section 1207.1.1 (table)? Or, could they store more batteries in this area since it's only accessible via the garage area?  How do you size a water storage tank for fire flow when the city supply is significant, but not sufficient for Fire Flow?
For instance, if I have 1,500 gpm available from the city at 20 psi, but I need 2,000 gpm for Fire Flow, is the water storage tank sized for 500gpm for the required duration? Or do I need to size the tank for the entire 2,000 gpm minus reliable refill? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are there any universal, non-AHJ-specific requirements for permitting sprinkler alterations and/or repairs?
I have been told that “code” requires a permit to be pulled for any and all sprinkler alterations. Upon further questioning, I determined that this came from a fire marshal showing my colleague something in the IBC once, but, even if that were true, wouldn’t that still require adoption and implementation by a jurisdiction? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Hi all, what is the maximum length of the connection from the hydrant to the fire water main?
NFPA 24 mentions that the minimum size is 6" but couldn't find anything related to the pipe length. Thanks Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Typically when I work on campus/multi-building systems, I am using a single underground main and splitting off to each building. Since you don't have to consider a multiple building fire problem, we have typically worked on the hydraulically most-remote building for underground sizing and use wall PIVs to offer individual building shutoffs, with FDCs on the individual buildings.
I'm getting challenged on "what allows this in code?" It's mostly a question of - where is the limit on how long a loop can be? I'm looking at this from a sprinkler design perspective and whether each individual building's sprinkler system is able to perform hydraulically. Is the limit for the length/layout/sizing of a campus underground loop simply the more demanding of Fire Flow or sprinkler system feeds? Is there a code basis for this? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a project that is a building 10-ft x 20-ft and is used only for electrical equipment. The building is remotely located, 10 miles from the nearest town.
Would a fire hydrant be required for such a structure? If not, what code exception would allow the omission of a hydrant? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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