Would like to take a moment and thank all of the contributors over the past month who have asked questions and shared your expertise to help others do great work too. I get to experience the unique bond we have in this industry, and I'm very thankful for that. Thank YOU for being a part of the forum here. Here are May's top contributors:

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This building is an H-1 occupancy. There is an area of refuge on the 4th floor. The shelter-in-place Class 3 area of refuge is protected from interior and exterior hazards. There are vertical openings through all 4 floors. The UFC is governing.

Based on this, do the stairwells need to be intertied directly to the shelter-in-place area of refuge for an exit enclosure that is a direct accessible means of egress (we are providing accessibility provisions)? Does the shelter-in-place area need to be a smoke enclosure as well as the interconnected stairwell system?

Based on this will both the stairwell and the shelter-in-place need to be pressurized to meet design intent?

Both exterior and interior air is hazardous and a scrubber would be needed to inject air for stairwell pressurization.

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Per NFPA 17A section 7.2 an owner's inspection is required for a wet chemical extinguishing system. I'm currently in the process of making a checklist for those systems at my site.

7.2.1 On a monthly basis, inspection shall be conducted in accordance with the manufacturer’s listed installation and maintenance manual or the owner’s manual.

However, how often does the "outside world" comply with this requirement?

I know at the previous site I worked at, we admittedly did not. Also, what are the tamper indicators and seals referred to in paragraph 7.2.2?

7.2.2 At a minimum, this “quick check” or inspection shall include verification of the following: ...
(3) The tamper indicators and seals are intact.

Not quite sure I know what NFPA is referring to there. Thanks in advance for all responses!

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I am dealing with a Military building. It is an H-1 occupancy. The building is currently 4 stories high.

This is not allowed per IBC based on means of egress.

Has anyone made an argument based on UFC referring to NFPA 101 for means of egress related items to make an H-1 occupancy allowed to be more than 1 story?

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For the 2016 NFPA 13 code book it appears that 8.15.1.2.6 and 8.15.1.2.8 contradict each other.

8.15.1.2.6* Concealed spaces formed by ceilings attached to composite wood joist construction either directly or onto
metal channels not exceeding 1 in. in depth, provided the joist channels are firestopped into volumes each not
exceeding 160 ft3 using materials equivalent to the web construction and at least 3-1⁄2 in. of batt insulation is installed at the bottom of the joist channels when the ceiling is attached utilizing metal channels, shall not require sprinkler protection.

8.15.1.2.8 Concealed spaces within wood joist construction and composite wood joist construction having noncombustible insulation filling the space from the ceiling up to the bottom edge of the joist of the roof or floor deck, provided that in composite wood joist construction the joist channels separated into volumes each not exceeding 160 ft3 to the full depth of the composite wood joist with material equivalent to the web construction, shall not require sprinkler protection.

If you had a insulation up to the bottom edge of your joist wouldn't you be able to exempt protection per 8.15.1.2.8? Couldn't you call that out and not use the extra 3.5" required per 8.15.1.2.6?

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NFPA 1 Section 13.2.2.2, a Class I standpipe is not required in buildings less than three stories or less than 50-ft high above grade. 

If we have a huge industrial complex or storage occupancy of 60,000 square meters (645,000 sqft), should we not require a standpipe system if it is only one floor above grade with a total height of 40-feet? Looks strange to me.

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When are sprinklers required in water cooling towers? Does  NFPA 214 address this? What should I look for in a water cooling tower that would cue this requirement?

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My fire sprinkler system was poorly designed. Static fire water pressure is constantly at or above the relief valve rating. This causes the valves to constantly discharge. I can't rebuild the fire system.

Can I put two valves in parallel or in series to reduce pressure? Would that invalidate the system?

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When does NFPA 101 take precedence over NFPA 13 in regards to omitting sprinklers in closets less than 12 sqft in area in individual dwelling units of new apartment buildings?

We have a 44-story high rise with 10 sq ft closets that are 2'x5' and we are trying to eliminate the sprinklers. NFPA 13 would require them since it is not a hotel or motel but NFPA 101 allows for the omission.

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We're designing a wood, NFPA 13 apartment with a flat TJI roof (engineered floor and roof joists) with batt insulation at the top of the TJI bays and drywall screwed to the bottoms of the TJI's.

The top floor units are protected using a wet system with the required 8 sprinkler calc. The architect wants to switch to sound channel (thin metal channel strips that run perpendicular to joists) which creates gaps between the TJI's and drywall ceiling.

We informed him that with channel, the batt insulation would need to be at the bottoms of the TJI space - which would separate our pipe from the heated space and present freeze issues. Of course, he and the GC never have had this 'problem' with any of their other similar roof structures and they're looking at me, the bad guy, for a solution.

Short of a complete roof re-design to trusses, what have others seen done with TJI roofs with sound channel in areas subject to freezing?

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Have a project which has a remote fire department connection outside of the main building. The fire department connection has its own dedicated feed that goes from the remote FDC, underground, up into the building, where it connects to the fire sprinkler riser downstream of the backflow preventer.

The check valve for this line is required to be inside the building, so the main between the FDC and check valve in the building is intended to be dry.

NFPA 24 (if that applies) allows PVC for underground water service in its table of permitted pipe types.

NFPA 13 specifically states that galvanized steel is permitted to be used between the FDC and the check valve serving the FDC. I can't see where NFPA 13 would mandate pipe types for this arrangement.

Is this underground FDC feed allowed to be PVC?

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Hello all, two questions:

1) Can the rules of a beam obstruction also be used for a 4 ft (1.2 m) obstruction? Or does section 8.5.5.3.1 prohibit that arrangement?

8.5.5.3.1* Sprinklers shall be installed under fixed obstructions over 4 ft (1.2 m) in width.

2) Can the rules of a beam obstruction also be used for a 30 in (750 mm) against wall obstruction? The standard says sprinklers "8.6.5.1.2*... shall be arranged to comply with one of the following arrangements"

Or does an obstruction against a wall have to comply with Figure 8.6.5.1.2(b) and then has to have a sprinkler underneath? 

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Has anyone dealt with a Dematic pouch sorter system?

The fire sprinkler contractor stated "the pouch sorter utilizes a pouch to move products through the building from storage locations to packing locations. The pouch basically is a U shaped bag with shorter side panels to keep products in the pouch. The pouch is constructed with two holes on the bottom corners of the pouch. Dematic and their European team has gone through a testing process to prove that the pouches do not need to be considered an Open Top container per NFPA 13."

Has anyone dealt with a Dematic pouch sorter system?

The fire sprinkler contractor stated "the pouch sorter utilizes a pouch to move products through the building from storage locations to packing locations. The pouch basically is a U shaped bag with shorter side panels to keep products in the pouch. The pouch is constructed with two holes on the bottom corners of the pouch. Dematic and their European team has gone through a testing process to prove that the pouches do not need to be considered an Open Top container per NFPA 13."

Would any one disagree the pouch sorters are NOT open top containers? Or, why they should be considered Open Top containers?

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I am interested if anyone is aware of any research or article that provides guidance on the lowest water velocity that is acceptable for performing a C-factor calculation for a 6” pipe?

I am curious if there is a lower flow velocity where the Hazen-Williams equation may not be valid.

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Looking for an answer to a basic discussion point concerning sprinkler spacing. A pendent sprinkler is on a 10'-0" ceiling which is 4'-0" away (horizontally) from a sprinkler in a lower wide soffit, at 8'-0".

Based on the higher sprinkler being so close to the edge of the soffit, the soffit creates an obstruction for the higher sprinkler. However, the lower sprinkler should it activate will undoubtedly throw water to the floor space directly below the higher sprinkler, yet neither sprinkler will directly spray the other.

Are these two sprinklers (one at a higher elevation and one at a lower elevation) required to be a minimum of 6-ft apart horizontally?

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Hello Fire Pro People! I am retrofitting an existing stand alone fire pump room.

The existing design had both an electric fire pump and diesel fire pump for back up. We are getting rid of the diesel, and going with just one electric fire pump. The existing building has a sprinkler system, fed from the piping in the Fire Pump room. We would like to get rid of sprinklers. Are they required by code? And can anyone tell me what classification this building is by IBC standards? I read through them all, and I didn't feel that the Fire Pump building fit into any of the categories. Thanks for any love you can send my way!

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I haven't had any experience doing site calculations before, but I'm curious how it works from a practical standpoint. Fire Flow is required by the International Fire Code here locally, and there's guidance (albeit not formally adopted) in Appendix B of the IFC for a total demand. Additionally, there's hydrant spacing requirements for any particular building, and guidance on how far the hydrants can be from a building.

In order to determine how the hydrants are fed (dead-end vs. looped and size of pipe), are there specific flow and pressure amounts that each hydrant has to be calculated at?

Is it similar to a standpipe calculations where each hydrant has to have a specific flow?

I'm not performing the design work myself, but I'm just curious how that is typically done and pipe size determined.

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I have an inspection question regarding quarterly checks on low air supervisory devices on dry systems.

Is it okay to simply "jump off" the device when not doing a full or partial trip to simply make sure it hits the panel?

I feel like I'm doing a disservice inspecting using this method, but I've seen it a lot. Unfortunately for me, it's been a crapshoot lately on what dry valve is going to go haywire when I drop air via an Inspector's Test Valve or at the riser. I'm thinking of just recommending a bleeder valve to be installed and go the easy route, saving both myself and customers a lot of anxiousness.

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A manufacturing facility is considering an air-supported dome facility. This would consist of a pressurized interior fabric dome structure. To date, they've managed not to require sprinkler protection for air-supported dome facilities.

Does the structure type like this have any bearing on sprinkler requirements?

I don't see a code path for not requiring sprinkler protection, but want to be sure I'm fair in my evaluation.Thanks in advance.

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There are restoration companies like Servpro that store furniture in large boxes in warehouses (some are wood and some are metal) for restoration. I have been told that the boxes are considered temporary since the items are restored and then moved back into the facility where it came from, but they can still be in the warehouse for months packed with all types of furniture.

NFPA 13, 2016 Table A.5.6 specifically lists "Storage container- Large container storage of household goods" as an example of a commodity that is not addressed by NFPA 13. I'm not intentionally picking on servpro because there are other companies like this, but servpro happens to be a popular one in my area so this is the example being used.

See an example of wooden storage boxes in the warehouse here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiyPxTr2Tgg

1) Has anyone else protected an occupancy similar to this and can provide some insight? Do the boxes need to have sprinklers dropped in them while they are in the warehouse?

2) If this situation does fall into the "Large storage containers" not addressed by NFPA 13, does anyone know what standard I can utilize to adequately protect this space?

I appreciate any feedback.

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Despite all of the changes that have impacted everyone worldwide, I still can't believe it's May already. 

Here's a shout out to our top April 2020 Contributors here on the Daily Forum. You all are the glue that makes the dialogue here special.