We have a situation where we'll have a piece of equipment in one control area that has a closed-use pipe arrangement with oxidizing gases that goes through different control areas. I've gotten conflicting feedback on this.

How do you figure the amount of "in-use" for each control area? 

Here's a sketch of the concept:

The equipment that is using the oxygen is on the fourth floor Control Area 2. The tanks that feed it are (2) 200 CF oxygen tanks that are in the second floor Control Area 1.

Which of the following two scenarios is the proper way to tally up the "in-use" quantity for the fourth floor Control Area 2 when comparing against the Maximum Allowable Quantities (MAQs)?

• Concept #1: The "in-use" amount is only the gas within the equipment itself, and only the gas within the piping to the extent of the control area wall.
• Concept #2: The "in-use" amount is all of the gas within the equipment itself, and all of the gas within all of the piping, and all of the gas within the (2) oxygen tanks which are actively hooked up to it.

 
My initial gut reaction was that the second option is correct, but now I’m not sure. My reasoning being that if there is an event in 4th floor control area 2 that causes a leak or something like that, it’s not going to just leak out what is physically within the control area… it’s going to leak out everything in all of the piping, all of the equipment, and all of the hooked up tanks. This is all presuming there are no safety devices to stop this from happening.

Assuming my initial gut reaction was correct, is there a way to limit the amount so that it stops at the control area wall?

As in: is there a safety device such as an automatic shutoff valve we can put at the wall such that in the event of a leak or other event, the automatic valve will shut off and then we only have to count the amount of gas between the equipment and the shutoff valve?

I’ve looked in the IBC and its commentary for more info, but couldn’t find anything helpful. I’ve also reached out to a number of different people and there seems to be a variety of different opinions on it.

Thanks in advance.

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I am a fire sprinkler fitter a military installation. Have a question regarding low expansion foam systems with the use of Viking Grate nozzles.

Of course with the concerns of AFFF, there are many issues and decisions flying around about the existing systems we have out here in our aircraft hangars.

Is it acceptable to use the Viking grate nozzles without the low expansion foam?

How does this provide any fire protection?

Obviously, this is not how the system was designed, in my opinion.

Please help me understand how this can be acceptable. I appreciate any and all input. 

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What are some popular solutions for elimination of wet-pipe sprinkler systems in data centers that have installed wet-pipe, VESDA and clean agent systems?

A client wants me to find a solution that will be acceptable to the local Authority Having Jurisdiction to eliminate the wet-pipe sprinkler system in the data center portion of the facility.

We already have the VESDA and clean agent. Are there other recommendations/insight here that might be helpful?

Thanks in advance.

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We have a stand alone open-air pool pavilion with no attached building.

There is a gas grill under the roof with a very elaborate hood/exhaust/Ansul system. There is no fire alarm system in this pool pavilion.

The Fire Inspector wants the Ansul system monitored by the clubhouse fire alarm system that is 100-ft away.

Is he correct by code?

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[Moderator's note: since the first lithium battery question a few weeks ago, we've been flooded with more questions on the topic. We'll do our best to not overburden everyone here but still keep with the topics people are asking. As always, we're thankful for you all!]

Could anybody point out some publications that deal specifically with the ventilation of lithium-ion batteries during off-gassing and how the ventilation should be controlled?

I am familiar with FM Global Loss Prevention Datasheet, and NFPA 855, and I went through some publications such as FIA, however from those I only get that there should be sufficient ventilation.

I am more interested in the off-gas detection part of the design.

The ventilation should be turned on and ESS turned off at the first sign of explosive gasses, but what gasses should those be?

H2, CO, C2H4, CH4, or all mentioned in a combination?

Not sure how to proceed in this.

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Given the HFC (hydrofluorocarbon) production phase-out, what are you currently recommending to your clients and customers regarding the installation of new FM-200 systems at this time?

Just curious to get a status check on how you approach this challenge. Thanks in advance.

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I wanted to pose the question on hazardous material storage lockers. We wish to protect the locker in accordance with Chapter 14 of NFPA 30 and have rated it for 4-hours to eliminate the need for fire separation distance to the immediately-adjacent main building as allowed.

The locker will not be structurally attached and will only have flashing connecting the two to keep out the elements, garbage, and animals. The locker will only have people in as necessary to get the liquids out.

The main building has a door on the "exterior wall" that opens and "reveals" the 3-hour rated hazardous material locker door, which you have to open to get inside the locker.

NFPA 30 2015 handbook Section 14.4.3 denotes that lockers over 1500 sqft should be protected permanent building such as attached buildings or warehouses. Our locker is under the 1500 sqft requirements so therefore I would say we are not a building but a "locker".

Therefore, the exterior wall openings allowances of IBC (2015) Table 705.8 would be to the lot line (over 10ft) and not the locker itself (0ft), allowing our client to access the locker from the inside of the main building and not having to go outside to access it from the exterior.

I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience or if we should just call it part of the main building and protect it as such and lose the allowances of Chapter 14.

Thanks in advance!

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We're working on an aircraft hanger with a foam system. I can't quite nail this down, as NFPA 409 and the UFC don't spell this out - do the hangar doors need to be open, or closed, in case of a fire or to test the foam system?

Again, don't see any guidance spelled out in either standard. Thanks in advance.

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NFPA 101 has commentary that states that kitchen hood suppression systems are not required to activate public mode alarm for fire alarm systems.

Our Authority Having Jurisdiction stated that since the kitchen hood systems are provided in lieu of required sprinkler systems, then they are required to activate public mode alarm.

What is the generally accepted practice for kitchen hood suppression monitoring?

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I am working on a project that is manufacturing lithium-metal batteries (not lithium-ion). There are multiple areas throughout the manufacturing process where there is a risk of exposed lithium metal.

With lithium being water reactive, any water based system is not an option.

Are there any known alternative fire suppression systems listed and approved for use on a lithium fire?

I know that per a couple of different NFPA codes that clean agent and dry-chemical systems are not recommended for use on lithium fires. From what I can find there are just manual fire extinguishers (such and ANSUL's lith-x) for use on lithium fires.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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NFPA 11 identifies several materials for foam concentrate pipe & valves, including brass, bronze, stainless steel (304 or 316), or other material in accordance with foam concentrate manufacturer's certification of compatibility with the foam concentrate as approved by the AHJ. [NFPA 11-2016 4.7.1.1]

Can we use hot-dipped carbon steel pipe to meet this requirement after the foam pump to the foam chamber of the cone roof tanks?

The distance is more than a mile long (1.2 miles, 2 km). Thanks in advance.

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The International Fire Code (IFC) Section 6004 for highly toxic and toxic gases states the following for exhausted enclosures:

6004.1.3(1) The average ventilation velocity at the face of the enclosure shall not be less than 200 feet per minute with not less than 150 feet per minute.

However, in the same section for gas cabinets (Section 6004.1.2(1)), the words "at any point of the access port or window" are added after "150 feet per minute."

Doe anyone know if this was an oversight by the authors of this section? Did they miss a few words in the requirement for exhausted enclosures?

I don't understand why the 150 feet per minute would be for gas cabinets but not exhausted enclosures (albeit without referencing where the 150 feet per minute measurement is to be taken). This issue is coming up at my work as we have several exhausted enclosures and gas cabinets and some of the exhausted enclosures have ports/windows which are sealed shut. Thanks in advance!

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We're under the International Fire Code, Section 903.2.11.5. This section allows fire sprinklers to be installed in commercial hood/duct systems.

Is this intended to be in the ductwork only, or also protecting the cooking equipment?

I've never seen this before, but it seems to go against everything we're taught about cooking and grease fires (don't put water on them)! Thanks in advance.

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We are designing a clean agent system for electrical rooms located within a high-rise building. We are proposing having dedicated clean agent releasing control panels for the electrical rooms, and a separate building Fire Alarm Control Panel.

Is it mandatory to connect fire/smoke dampers (and other shutdown devices) in the electrical room with the clean agent releasing panel, or can these be connected to the building fire alarm system?

Thanks in advance.

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We have been asked if a 20+ year old wet pipe sprinkler system we installed into a paint application room is the correct method of protection for a specific paint product that is currently being used.

The MSDS sheets for a few of the products they now use indicate protection with dry chemical, foam, or water fog.

I have been told that the MSDS sheets typically refer to the product as its being stored and not necessarily as its being applied. The storage is not happening in this room of course, but in approved fire-rated storage cabinets outside the area. None of the typical requirements for alternate protection are met per NFPA 33.

Basically other than the product data sheets, this is a run of the mill paint application area. Nothing automated or fancy.

Anyone have any experience with a similar situation?

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Do liquid nitrogen storage rooms need to be fire-resistance rated?

According to NFPA 55 (2016 Edition) Section 6.4.4, gas storage rooms need to be 1-hour fire rated, but it just seems odd since nitrogen can be used as an extinguishing agent.

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Does anyone know of a dry-chemical or equivalent fire suppression system that can be used in cold environments (as low as -20 degrees Fahrenheit)?

The space to be protected is a testing chamber approximately 8 feet by 11 feet (made of combustible materials). Automatic fire extinguishers are not an option as they don't have any UL rating. Thanks in advance.

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I have a question regarding the need to provide electrical classification for a building using Class 1A flammable liquids.

For this building, 4 gallons could be out in use (located anywhere in the building). The MAQ is 10 gallons. I have discussed this with NFPA 30 committee, the manufacturer, and the AHJ (who is a knowledgeable FPE). They have all determined that even if the MAQ is not exceeded, electrical classification is required if a flammable/explosive mixture could be present.

The NFPA 30 staff directed me to a provision in NFPA 497, Section 5.5, that if the materials will not reach 25% of the lower flammable limit (LFL), this could be utilized to justify not providing classified electrical fixtures.

Does anyone know how to do this calculation, or know of firms that can be hired to do this?

I am an FPE and do not know how to perform it, and I have spoken with other FPE’s who also are not aware. The gentleman I spoke with at NFPA 30 agreed it would be by an industrial hygienist or a chemical engineer and not an FPE.

But does anyone know any that can be hired for a one-off calculation, or have a place where I could learn how to perform it myself (NFPA reference, SFPE article, course, etc.?).

Thank you!

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Have a project at a local grocery store that has an end cap kiosk with a Class 1 commercial kitchen hood. The kiosk is 6-foot wide by 8-foot long and has one means of egress out of the kiosk. The kiosk is used for cooking demonstrations and to hand out food samples to the customers.

​The predicaments we (AHJ, owner, designer of record, and contractor) are having is the location of the manual release station. There are no structural columns or architectural surfaces that are within the minimum distance of 10 feet or a maximum of 20 feet from the cooking surface to mount the manual release stations that are within the means of egress.

Any thoughts or suggestions on where to mount the manual release station?

Thanks in advance.

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At our site I'm dealing with personnel wanting to park small vehicles (Gem carts and forklifts) inside the building.

I know this is clearly not allowed in an egress corridor (where it was) but I'm having trouble finding parts of the code addressing storage in mechanical rooms or similar space. I know NFPA 101 has rules for high hazard contents but not sure if I can make that argument for the vehicles.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

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Has anyone seen the International Fire Code Chapters 53 and 58 applied to natural gas installations in addition to the Fuel Gas Code?

IFC Chapter 53 is Compressed Gasses and Chapter 58 is Flammable Gasses.

It's technically a gas at standard temperature and pressure with a boiling point below 68 deg F at 14.7 psi and flammable range of 5% to 17% by volume in air. Natural gas appears to be subject to these requirements, but I've never seen it this way in practice. 

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We have scenario where we are using foam system under NFPA 11 for a floating roof tank with Crude Oil.

Based on our previous calculation for a prior tank the fire water demand is 1,926 gpm so we have existing 2,000 gpm pump to be able to supply the required flow. But an additional Crude Oil tank has been added and we have run our new hydraulic calculations and we come up with 4,496 gpm new flow requirement.

Is there a way we can still use the existing fire pump?

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​Does anyone have experience with a specific fire extinguisher for fires involving platinum catalysts? I know this would generally fall under the Class D type of extinguishers but was wondering if there is a platinum specific extinguisher like there is for lithium fires (lith-x brand). Also, if you do have experience is there any difference in operation besides a regular extinguisher (for example how the agent is propelled)?

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Per NFPA 17A section 7.2 an owner's inspection is required for a wet chemical extinguishing system. I'm currently in the process of making a checklist for those systems at my site.

7.2.1 On a monthly basis, inspection shall be conducted in accordance with the manufacturer’s listed installation and maintenance manual or the owner’s manual.

However, how often does the "outside world" comply with this requirement?

I know at the previous site I worked at, we admittedly did not. Also, what are the tamper indicators and seals referred to in paragraph 7.2.2?

7.2.2 At a minimum, this “quick check” or inspection shall include verification of the following: ...
(3) The tamper indicators and seals are intact.

Not quite sure I know what NFPA is referring to there. Thanks in advance for all responses!

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I have an existing foam/water deluge system covering vessels and sprinklers providing area coverage for pool fires. The sprinklers are smaller than K-5.6. The owner wants us to match the existing sprinklers. 

In your opinion, is this acceptable?

For reference, NFPA 13 (2013) Section 8.3.4:
8.3.4 Sprinklers with K-Factors Less than K-5.6 (80).
8.3.4.1 Sprinklers shall have a minimum nominal K-factor of 5.6 (80) unless otherwise permitted by 8.3.4...
8.3.4.2 For light hazard occupancies not requiring as much water as is discharged by a sprinkler with a nominal K-factor of K-5.6 (80) operating at 7 psi (0.5 bar), sprinklers having a smaller orifice shall be permitted, subject to the following restrictions:
(1) The system shall be hydraulically calculated.
(2) Sprinklers with nominal K-factors of less than K-5.6 (80) shall be installed only in wet pipe sprinkler systems or in
accordance with the limitations of 8.3.4.3 or 8.3.4.4.
(3) A listed strainer shall be provided on the supply side of sprinklers with nominal K-factors of less than K-2.8 (40).
8.3.4.3 Sprinklers with nominal K-factors of less than K-5.6 (80) shall be permitted to be installed in conformance with 11.3.2 for protection against exposure fires.
8.3.4.4 Sprinklers with nominal K-factors of K-4.2 (57) shall be permitted to be installed on dry pipe and preaction systems protecting light hazard occupancies where piping is corrosion resistant or internally galvanized.

NFPA 15 (2017) Section 7.3.3. Flammable and Combustible Liquid Pool Fires
Water spray systems designed to control pool fires resulting from a flammable or combustible liquid spill fire shall be designed to apply a net rate of not less than 0.30 gpm/sqft of protected area.

I think my new design will require nozzles spaced at 100 square feet if the k-factor needs to be smaller than k-5.6 under NFPA 13.

Also, do you know of any non-aspirating nozzles that are listed for foam?

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