We have a Type-I, non-combustible condominium building over 75-feet tall.

The existing ceiling is concrete coated with filigree, then a popcorn finish.

For the renovation (and adding lighting), a new ceiling is being dropped using a 1-1/2" steel hat track then 1/2" drywall for a total of a 2-inch drop.

Existing smoke detectors are 10-year battery, surface-mounted to the filigree ceiling. They are not linked or part of the building fire alarm system. There is one fire alarm speaker in each unit tied to the building fire alarm system.

Do the smoke detectors have to be flush with the new drywall surface, or could they be left on the filigree ceiling?

I believe the speaker can be left attached to the filigree ceiling and be in a pocket (or a void) in the new drywall ceiling with a metal speaker cover. The sound is actually amplified.

I've never heard or seen a smoke detector being installed below or even with the surface of the ceiling, though. 

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Looking for some back history here - why is heat sensor detection temperature 57 degrees C?

On what basis was sprinkler temperature determined to be 68 degrees C?

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We have a stand alone open-air pool pavilion with no attached building.

There is a gas grill under the roof with a very elaborate hood/exhaust/Ansul system. There is no fire alarm system in this pool pavilion.

The Fire Inspector wants the Ansul system monitored by the clubhouse fire alarm system that is 100-ft away.

Is he correct by code?

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We have a building that was designed with exit width and stair width per occupant using the exception CBC 1005.3.1 for a sprinklered building with EVACS (emergency voice/alarm communication system), however, the fire alarm design drawings show horns/strobes.

Found out through the fire alarm deferred submittal corrections.

Changing the width of stairs and exit doors is not an option as the shell is already built.

The EVACS option will cause delays, cost impacts, and material procurement challenges and not advised by FD because building has inherent ambient noise associated with building operations.

What options do we have?

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How many duct detectors are allowed on a single zone?

The maximum number of flow switches allowed is five, but are there any requirements or restrictions for duct detectors beyond the equipment capability?

Thanks in advance.

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Looking for some insight on a project I'm reviewing.

We have an 1,800,000 sqft storage occupancy with business and assembly mixed in. It has a 2-story open foyer main entrance. The graphic annunciator and fire alarm panel are in the same location.

My problem is the 2-story space is all glass around the means of egress.

How would sprinkler protection and using the the graphic annunciator work in a all-glass space?

I'm looking to get sprinkler coverage at the glass window, which are floor-to-ceiling. Also, the outside wall in the corner of the building is all glass too.

Looking for insight on how to approach this and any concerns you might have regarding an all-glass space.

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Is there a code requirement - IBC, IFC, or somewhere else - for a Knox Box?

I understand some jurisdictions amend code to require a specific key box - and I'm sure a specific "Knox Box" brand isn't written into code - but just a requirement that triggers the fire department key box to begin with.

I've always asked the jurisdictions whether they wanted one, and they usually do, but I've never found a requirement that I probably should know about by now.

Also, I've had this missed on many a job in a scope gap between subcontractors and the general contractor. What division would supply and install these? 

As a consultant I usually get a bunch of pointed fingers elsewhere anytime I ask who is planning on providing it.

Thanks in advance, appreciate the variety of perspectives here.

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We are installing an elevator (freight) at an advanced water treatment plant. The doors open at two locations:

1. the basement of the facility where pumps and piping are located, and
   
2. to the building exterior with only a small canopy/awning protecting the entrance.
   
   

A smoke detector is located near the elevator in the basement; however, is a smoke detector required under this canopy/awning?

Thanks in advance.

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What are the required system components for a Fire Alarm System versus a Fire Sprinkler Monitoring System?

I've ran into a debate on this in multiple jurisdictions. I know a fire alarm system has occupant notification and initiating devices, such as the smoke detectors, pull stations, waterflow, etc., whereas sprinkler monitoring is just waterflow notification.

But, is occupant notification required for a Sprinkler Monitoring System?

Furthermore, do horn/strobes need to have a secondary power supply, like Fire Alarm System components do?

Is a smoke detector required above the panel/radio/dialer? 

I know it depends on the local AHJ, but I'm looking for some guidance here... I am the local AHJ.

Thanks for your input!

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We have a project with a unique strobe situation.

New installation into an existing building, Department of Defense so we're under UFC criteria.

The new fire alarm and mass notification system uses Alert strobes (as is common), but in some portions of the building there are blue security strobes. These are used as a warning with non-classified personnel are in the area.

These blue strobes flash at the same rate as the fire alarm/mass notification strobes, but they are not synchronized. The blue security strobes are manually activated at an attendant's desk.

Is there a requirement to synchronize these different systems, from UFC criteria or elsewhere?

Fundamentally, the strobe synchronization issue and potential epileptic exposure is the same concern whether or not it's a concert, fire alarm system, security or dancing club - I certainly understand that we don't want the hazard from the strobes. I do wonder if any of you have come across this, and/or what your opinion might be to handle the situation.

We're on closeout for the project and there has been explicit requirement to override, synchronize or shutdown either the fire alarm or security strobes.

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For domestic (US) military work, we're generally required to comply with the Buy American Act. 

However, our fire alarm manufacturer's batteries (every listed brand) is sourced internationally. 

Is there some waiver to this requirement for specifically-sourced pieces of equipment? 

Or is there some third-party battery manufacturer that's accepted outside the listing?

I'm wondering how others deal with the Buy American requirements when it doesn't appear we have any options. Thanks in advance.

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I'm in Code Enforcement in New York. I've never been completely comfortable as to where strobes are required in "common use and public use" areas.

I'm not talking about the obvious locations such as open areas, corridors , restrooms, conference rooms, etc. I'm talking smaller enclosed rooms such as offices, pantries, copy rooms, file rooms etc.

The definition of "Common Use" in the New York State Building Code is "Interior or exterior circulation paths, rooms, spaces or elements that are not for public use and are made available for the shared use of two or more people".

With respect to rooms, does "shared use of two or more people" relate to stations, desks, cubicles, etc, where people normally sit and/or work?

Or does it mean any space where at least two people can be in the room at the same time for any duration?

Another example is a doctor's office that has exam rooms that is classified as a Group B occupancy. The patient and medical professional can be in the room, or the patient can be alone for a period of time.

Should we consider exam rooms as public space?

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A question came to me about the survivability requirements for an elevator landing communication system required by 2018 IBC 1009.8/NFPA 101 7.2.12.1. 2016 is the applicable NFPA 72 edition.

The designer is arguing that since NFPA 72 Section 24.3.13 doesn't call out "elevator landing communication systems" by name that it falls under Section 24.3.13.12 and requires a risk analysis. They did note that the 2019 edition "clears up some confusion" but don't mention that the 2019 edition modifies section 24.3.7.2 to reference "elevator landing communication systems" and refer their design to the area of refuge/rescue assistance section 24.10 along with stair communication systems.

The 2016 edition of 24.3.7.2 just references "elevator emergency communication systems, section 24.11" which is pretty clearly about the in-car call systems, not the systems required at the landings by IBC/101.

Now I've done my homework, its pretty clear that from 2016-2019 NFPA wants elevator landing communication systems to meet the same requirements as an area of refuge communication system, and from 2019-2022 its explicitly clear that the elevator landing communication systems need to be robust; further more the commentary language of the IBC, NFPA 101 and NFPA 72 for the elevator landing and area of refuge communication systems all pretty much say the same thing that non-self-evacuating occupants needs a reliable means of communication for the duration they remain in the building, so the two systems would need to function the same.

My problem is that for the 2016 edition this is all implied and implicit language.

I am very confident that elevator landing systems require the same survivability as area of refuge systems but can't find an explicit code reference to support it. Is there a section/commentary section/something I'm missing?

Thanks in advance.

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We are designing a new/upgraded fire alarm system for a remodeled highrise (our local codes are 2012 IBC and 2018 NFPA 1) and there is a detached walk-in cooler for the restaurant, located relatively close to the main building (~3' away from the nearest exterior wall).

We received an RFI asking whether fire alarm devices are required in the coolers - good question(!). I'm not able to find anything specific for fire alarm devices in detached storage buildings.

Do you see fire alarm required for the detached cooler?

If anyone has any insight (or NFPA references that I've overlooked), it would be very much appreciated!

Thanks for a great community!

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From Joe - first - thank you for being a part of this community. This forum really has turned into something outstanding, and far better than I could have hoped for when we brought it to life a few years ago. You may be surprised to know just how popular this is now with over 4,000 daily email subscribers. Keep up the great work, and thanks for being part of it!

Today I'd like to open up a discussion and ask for some feedback on a draft we created for design of Fire Alarm for Elevators.

A lot has changed in this space. I first put this draft version together a year ago, and now with the 2022 Edition of NFPA 72 out (among other code updates). 

Well, now a year later, it's time I kick this into gear and get a formalized version together. Before I wrap this up and get through my own updates, I'd like to extend an invite; if you're a fire alarm junkie and you hear intelligibility whale noises in your nightmares, please take a look and let me know what feedback I might be able to incorporate. 

We're all in this together and we're certainly trying to get things spot-on, so as always I appreciate and welcome the input. Feel free to post below, or if you'd rather just let me know directly, at joe@meyerfire.com.

​Thanks so much for being a part of what we're doing here!

​- Joe Meyer

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We have a military project in the US, so the project is mandated to be compliant with UFC criteria.

We are required to locate an LOC (Local Operating Console) within 200-ft of all portions of a building.

Is exiting the building, and re-entering, to access an LOC permissible? 

If we have exterior-only mechanical rooms, electrical rooms, or maintenance bays (which each only access the outside), then at what point would an LOC be required in each of these spaces?

I'm not trying to be facetious or dramatic, just looking for outside opinion on working through a gray area in my mind.

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​If NFPA 75 isn't an explicitly adopted code by the AHJ or not referenced by any of the other applicable codes is smoke detection required in a raised floor area?

NFPA 72 provides location guidance but other than that I can't find in NFPA 101/IBC where smoke detection would be required in the raise floor space. Not every jurisdiction/client adopts NFPA 75, I'm unsure what other code or standard would require below floor smoke detection.

Thanks in advance.

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We are trying to complete system testing for a closed-loop system and a waterflow alarm is not reporting back to the fire alarm panel.

Is there a good sequence of operations for a closed-loop system?

More specifically, what order of events needs to happen when a sprinkler activates?

Thanks.

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Will there ever be a single-station photoelectric smoke detector with a low-frequency sounder base for hotel and apartment buildings?

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When would a parking garage require an occupant notification system?

NFPA 101 has some fairly clear guidelines but isn't applicable in my project, the 2015 ICC codes are.

I can't find anything in Section 907 for S occupancies and Section 406 doesn't really give much direction either. Open, enclosed, above or below grade, and above or below other occupancies; It doesn't seem super straight-forward.

Thanks in advance.

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The 2019 Edition of NFPA 1221 (Standard for the Installation, Maintenance, and Use of Emergency Services Communications Systems) Section 4.5.2 requires that communication centers "be provided with an automatic fire detection, alarm and notification system in accordance with NFPA 72."

But what constitutes "automatic fire detection?"

I'm thinking this is alluding to wanting full smoke coverage of the area/space but the language of "fire detection" seems intentionally vague. A supervised automatic suppression system would meet this definition I think; its seems excessive to think a constantly attended room with fully sprinkler coverage would also require full smoke detection.

Is there some other guidance I need to consider here? Is this defined elsewhere?

​Thanks in advance.

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Could anyone enlighten me on the purpose of "draft curtains" where mentioned in NFPA 409 (Standard on Aircraft Hangars)?

In particular in the context of sprinkler protection; paragraph A.5.17.3 clearly states that the reason for limiting a draft curtain area to 7,500 sqft (697 m2) is to improve detection and sprinkler response times...."

Am I right to assume that the intention is to prevent heat from a fire event from being distributed away from sprinklers above?

Would I also be right to say the same thing would apply to smoke from a fire (in respect to fire detection)?

Many thanks in advance.

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We're currently working on a school project. There's a suspended ceiling throughout much of the school. The project requires "total coverage", but I'm not sure whether this applies above the ceiling, below the ceiling, or both.

We're under NFPA 72, but 72 does not seem to clarify this either way.

Are smoke detectors required above and below ceilings, for "total coverage"?

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Is it possible (maybe someone has encountered this already) to trigger a false alarm on a VESDA system or photoelectric smoke detector from refrigerant discharge mixture that contains both refrigerant and oil?

I'm concerned about the combination possibly affecting the fire alarm system.

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I'm working on a 4-story multifamily structure.

The structure has one common entrance, but is comprised of four separate buildings on four separate lots, all on the same city block.

There is a fire separation between each building.

I've been trying to find code language indicating that each building is required by code to have a separate fire alarm system, but have not found anything remotely definitive.

Would appreciate code reference/help here.

Most likely going to request a variance to use one system across all four buildings, but for my personal edification would really appreciate an appropriate IBC or NFPA 72 code reference.

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