|
I hear so many times that if the fire alarm panel dies, the entire building's fire alarm system must be brought up to current code.
Can anyone educate the world on when building fire alarm systems must be completely upgraded to the current code? The International Existing Building Code (IEBC) Section 6 lists all possible combinations. Level 1, level 2, and Level 3. None of them require a full upgrade to the current code when the main panel hits its end of life. If a system was to need to replace all items in its location with a different system, reusing locations and wire, it would not meet a Level 3 requirement alone and would simply be using new equipment or fixtures that serve the same purpose. Can someone give me an actual code path that requires a full upgrade in this scenario? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
9 Comments
I have an R-2 convent with existing 120v smokes in the sleeping areas and they are installing a new FACP including low frequency notification in the sleeping areas.
I’ve read the commentary for IBC 907.5.2.3.3. Would you say based on this section that they would need to either replace the existing 120’s and install system smoke detectors, or change the existing 120’s to a combo audio/visual model? I'm trying to determine if the intent behind this is that the existing 120v smoke alarms now would also be required to activate visible signaling as well. Appreciate your input! Moderator: Link Directly to IBC 2021 907.5.2.3.3 Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe NFPA 72 (2016) Section 17.7.5.3 says a duct smoke detector is required in the supply air duct; on the other hand, the IMC (2020) Section 606.2.1 says a duct smoke detector is required in the return air duct.
Which should I follow? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe For a deluge system with pilot sprinkler detectors in a column (5 levels), where is the pilot line required?
At what levels do we need detection? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does NFPA 72 (or other standards) have any limit for the environment in which the beam detector is allowed to be installed?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Concealed Fire Alarm Devices: I am looking into specifying concealed fire alarm devices for a project. I have two major questions:
1. Are concealed fire alarm devices reliable? I have heard second-hand that concealed fire alarm devices do not always function. 2. Are there a variety of manufacturers? I did a quick Google search and have only been able to find one manufacturer. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does a sprinkled tenant space Group M with an occupant load of 51 and sprinklers separated by fire-rated walls from the rest of the mall need automatic fire detection?
I think a pull station or the flow switch to active the notification would be enough. The existing plans show detection in the main sales area, in the electrical room and where the power supply for the NAC is located. According to my analysis the only mandatory detector should be the one in the power supply room. Wouldn't you agree? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are stand-alone clean agent systems required to be monitored by a supervising station or constantly attended location?
I am reviewing plans for a small, remote equipment shed that is equipped with a clean agent suppression system. The building is remote enough and small enough that IBC wouldn't require a fire alarm or sprinkler system. The designer claims that it doesn't have to report out, but I think they're wrong. I think this would fall under the IBC 907.3 requirements for a dedicated function panel, which still requires supervision of the detectors at a "constantly attended location." Since the building isn't constantly attended, it would have to dial out to the central receiving station, not just to some guy's email. From what I've gathered, a full-blown FACP wouldn't be required, but a dedicated panel to dial out would be. What is your take on this? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Suppose you have a small enough elevator lobby with hold-open doors.
Could you use one detector to activate both recall and door closing, so long as you comply with the spacing requirements for both the doors (based on ceilings) and distance to the elevator(s)? I don't see why you couldn't if you have an intelligent system that could achieve this through programming, and I don't see anything in NFPA 72 that would prohibit this either. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is it mandatory for a smoke detector to be installed directly in front of a single elevator, at the center of the elevator door, for elevator recall?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have an older class B Mercantile space that is sprinklered but not alarmed. The last tenant was a large pharmacy chain that monitored their own fire alarm or sprinkler systems. When they left they removed the alarm panel.
The tamper and flow switches are still there, as well as an exterior electronic flow bell. Does this sprinkler system require electronic monitoring? Currently they have nothing monitored. I would like it to be monitored, but need something to back me up. We adopted the 2021 I-Codes and 2015 NFPA 101 (Statewide). Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Hi, I am a Fire Alarm system installer and have been active for 25 years.
I am writing today because the change from the UBC to the IBC, or some other change that I am unaware of, has removed the requirements to do anything in an existing un sprinklered building in Washington state. Looking at the requirements for E occupancy, specifically for a sprinklered building, it says to install heat detectors in most locations. There is no guidance for what to do in an existing non-sprinklered building. This has led some to remove smoke detectors from projects and install only heat detectors other than the one for the panel and power supplies, treating sprinklered buildings and non-sprinklered buildings the same. I am alarmed by this and think it’s a mistake we will regret. On a sprinklered building, you have suppression, so the fire will likely be in a controllable state when first responders arrive. It makes sense that early warning would be redundant, other than areas like exit pathways or sleeping areas where someone could be overcome with smoke or the exit path may be blocked. Early warning devices are necessary in those cases. If we get the people out safely, then the firemen don’t need to go in. Early warning devices achieve that. But on a non-sprinklered building there is no suppression. Heat detectors do not go into alarm until the fire reaches them, they are mounted on the ceiling so the walls and building will be on fire before they activate. Smoke detectors will go off when the fire is smoldering getting the first responders on the way before the building is on fire. Oh, and getting the people out of the building before it’s on fire, one of my personal favorites. My goals, 1. I wanted to add some beam smoke detectors over the gym floor area and some smoke detectors over the stage due to the large amounts of fabric. 2. I intended on replacing all the devices on the permitted installation with like for like. Resulting in smoke detectors in the areas that currently have smoke detectors. Both of my submittals (to the architect) showing smoke detectors were rejected and I was instructed to show heat detectors. I have no way to argue for the smoke detectors, there is no guidance I can find. We are removing all the life safety out of the life safety systems. Is there something I am missing, is there a way I can fight to get smoke detection in the halls and classrooms that do not have an exit doors? I looked at the 2021 IFC chapter 11, specifically 1103. I hoped I had found my solution but reading it more carefully, I see the intent of that statement is the table. I can’t find anything on that table that will keep the early warming detection in the life safety system. I know the goal is to reduce false alarms. Smoke detectors have a bad reputation for unwanted alarms. On this project they were suffering from false alarms. That is the reason they are wanting to eliminate smoke detectors. With in a half hour of being on site the existing system went into alarm. I viewed the point, found out it was a 135 fixed temp heat installed in an attic that was at 150. So Heat detectors false alarm as well when incorrectly applied to the environment or poorly maintained. Are we going to regret this or am i just an old man with old ways of doing things? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We were looking to tie multiple fire alarm systems together from various vendors such as Honeywell, Siemens, Notifier, intermesh, etc. The end goal is to bring all the zone data for a building to a Siemens Desigo Fire Server.
Currently, the Monitoring-Only Solution Assembly (MOSA) ring will not accommodate the Honeywell, Notifier, or other non-Siemens panels to bring in a complete data stream in. We are limited to the standard supervisory signals for trouble, alarm, duct detectors, pull station, and smoke detectors as a limited set of data. Does anyone have an interface that would bring multiple data points from other vendors' fire alarm panels to the Desigo front-end? Siemens and Honeywell do not support each other’s components. The MOSA ring is a Siemens product. A 3rd party would be required to facilitate the interface panel. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can we connect 2 or three buildings to the same fire alarm system? What about sprinkler?
What code basis (IBC or NFPA 13/72) would allow or disallow multiple buildings on the same system? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe If you have an open office area with (2) AHUs, each AHU supply fan provides 1,500 cfm of supply air and return air that is fully ducted and has no common plenum.
Would duct detectors be provided on the supply side of each AHU? Do you combine the "CFM" since both units serve the same area? If not, would you ever cumulatively add multiple units of CFM? This has been an ongoing question as each of our AHJs sees it differently. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does a standalone mass notification system (MNS) require a smoke detector in front of the panel for a drug reduction facility?
The facility is 2,100 sqft and houses a minimum of 11 persons. Basically a drug testing and counseling facility. No Fire Alarm required for the building; being governed by UFC 3-600-01 for the US Air Force. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What are the requirements for installing a smoke detector above a suspended ceiling?
Is it simply the same spacing rules as if the smoke detector were below the ceiling? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an airline opening a training facility in our jurisdiction. The building is fully sprinklered and has a fire alarm.
They wish to install a static airplane fuselage for training airplane cabin personnel. This would be a functioning fuselage with standard airplane doors with ramps. Has anyone had an experience with this? This is a fully sprinklered building so our thinking is the fuselage needs sprinkler coverage inside. Is this correct? This building has a fire alarm system so our thinking is the fuselage needs notification devices. Is this correct? The fuselage doors do not meet the code requirement for egress doors (locks, swing, etc), how is this addressed? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe From the 2023 Edition of NFPA 855, Section 14.6.4 "Outdoor storage areas with an aggregate area greater than 400 sqft (37.1 sqm) shall be provided with a fire alarm system activated by a radiant-energy detection system with occupant notification installed in accordance with NFPA 72."
How do you interpret this requirement if there is outdoor storage of Li-Ion batteries without any sort of structure and 300' from any building, and there are no occupants to notify? Thanks for your help! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does a security grill utilized in school corridors required to be tied into the fire alarm?
If so, the concept should be that the grill in the closed position should return to the open position when fire alarm is activated, correct? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is there any code that requires that fire alarm coverage be provided in areas that are in the process of major modifications, including asbestos abatement work?
We have a project which will undergo major asbestos abatement and are getting pushback that the fire alarm system must remain operational in the space during the renovation work. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Looking to learn more about NFPA 72-2019 18.5.5.7 Performance-Based Alternative for visible notification. Currently have a single 95cd wall-mounted horn-strobe approximately centered in an club office room that is approximately 41-ft by 34-ft, ceilings at 11-ft. The is a wall on the far end that is about 10-ft and 9-ft off the back wall and full height. Table 18.5.5.5.1(a) is based off direct line of sight is my understanding, but would give a maximum room size of 50-ft x 50-ft. Are there any resources available to help understand how to quantify the that 0.0375 lumen/ft² of illumination is met from reflection of surfaces behind the wall? I'm sure there are more inputs that are needed but just looking to get started at how to attack the problem. Thanks in advance Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe  Sometimes we would not want to evacuate entire buildings in a fire alarm condition, even outside of healthcare facilities.
If a fire alarm is programmed to evacuate only "affected" areas, what defines the boundaries of the affected area? What building features are required to implement a defend-in-place strategy, in a large Industrial Facility F-1? Where can I find the specific rating requirements for the fire and smoke barriers separating "affected areas"/zones? Looking to understand this concept and the requirements around it better; thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Fire alarm question for an ICC state that adopts 2012 IBC/IFC & NFPA 72, 2010 edition.
I have an existing mixed use F-1 & S-1 occupancy. This building was originally built in 1910 with two additions over the years. The building sustained fire damage a year ago and is undergoing repairs, no additions, just repairing fire damage that was quite extensive. The building is not sprinkled (not required when built). They had a partial alarm system installed about 35 years ago. The insurance will cover the cost to repair/replace the partial system only, which will require a new FACP, wiring and initiating devices. Insurance will pay for a new system to cover the entire building, if required by code. We cannot find anything in NFPA 72 that requires the entire building to have alarm coverage. There is no requirement in the IBC for F occupancies (single story, grade level) to have an alarm system. We do see where non-required systems shall be allowed to be partial. The question is, since this alarm system is being modified, is there any requirement for the entire building to be alarmed in NFPA 72? The AHJ would also like to see the entire building to be alarmed, but doesn’t think he can require it by code since it would technically be a non-required system per the IBC. The only thing he could think of was the requirement for manual pull stations at each exit since the building is not sprinkled. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a passenger elevator that is a traction, machine room-less (MRL).
Under NFPA 13, 2013 Edition, Section 8.15.5.2, a 'sprinkler shall not be required for enclosed, non-combustible elevator shafts that do not contain combustible hydraulic fluids.' NFPA 72, 2013 Edition, Section 21.3.6 states that 'smoke detectors shall not be installed in unsprinklered hoistways unless they are installed to activate the elevator hoistway smoke relief equipment.' I believe these would apply to this elevator. Does the elevator only require lobby smoke detectors, including first floor for recall and second floor for alternate recall? Is a smoke detector actually required within the shaft? This is my first MRL elevator and I want to make sure we cover everything that's required. I would appreciate you views on this, thank you! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
ALL-ACCESS
SUBSCRIBESubscribe and learn something new each day:
COMMUNITYTop December '24 Contributors
YOUR POSTPE EXAMGet 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
FILTERS
All
ARCHIVES
January 2025
PE PREP SERIES |
RSS Feed
