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We have a passenger elevator that is a traction, machine room-less (MRL).
Under NFPA 13, 2013 Edition, Section 8.15.5.2, a 'sprinkler shall not be required for enclosed, non-combustible elevator shafts that do not contain combustible hydraulic fluids.' NFPA 72, 2013 Edition, Section 21.3.6 states that 'smoke detectors shall not be installed in unsprinklered hoistways unless they are installed to activate the elevator hoistway smoke relief equipment.' I believe these would apply to this elevator. Does the elevator only require lobby smoke detectors, including first floor for recall and second floor for alternate recall? Is a smoke detector actually required within the shaft? This is my first MRL elevator and I want to make sure we cover everything that's required. I would appreciate you views on this, thank you! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
8 Comments
Fighting with myself this morning on whether interior horn/strobes are required for a project going on in my jurisdiction.
It's a 14,000 sqft tenant space in a sprinklered strip mall. The landlord fire alarm panel only monitors sprinkler system and three duct detectors. Under the 2018 IBC / IFC, no manual fire alarm system is required. Section 907.2.7.1 adds confusion for me regarding occupant notification. It allows an exception for a constantly attended locations to provide instructions in the event of alarm activation from manual pull OR waterflow. Given no constantly attended location exists, would the sprinkler system in this case require interior horn/strobes within the tenant space? The exterior bell is on the rear of the building with a landlord maintenance space in-between. If there was a sprinkler flow in the adjacent tenant space, how would the space in question be notified to evacuate? The architect on the project feels nothing is required inside the space. Maybe I'm taking a common sense approach to this but want to be sure I have code to back me up in requiring interior occupant notification. This is for a discount retail tenant. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In NFPA 72, does Pathway Survivability apply only to Emergency Communication systems?
In the 2019 Edition of NFPA 72, Section 12.4 stipulates required protection regarding various levels. Section 24.3 Pathway Survivability defines requirements for different levels of declaration. Chapter 12 applies for all fire alarm wiring. However, the title of Chapter 24 is for Emergency Communication systems. Does pathway survivability apply only for Emergency Communication systems only? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can a zone control valve assembly be installed downstream of another zone control valve assembly?
If there is a fire in Zone A (the primary zone), Zone A's flow switch would activate. If there is a fire in Zone B (the secondary zone), Zone A and B's flow switches would activate. Not sure whether this is permitted under NFPA 13 or 72. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Four-story office building wants to shut down five large air handlers nightly. Purpose is to lower energy costs when building is unoccupied. This will cause all fire/smoke dampers (FSDs) to close (the smoke detectors in return ducts need minimum operational air velocity).
The FSDs are mostly original from 1985-1988. Only UL tested for 5000 cycles and no dynamic. I cannot find a code reference to prohibit this and believe that the FSDs are already near the end of their functional lifespan. Many have been replaced due to bad actuators, binding jack shafts and missing blades. Anyone know of a code reference to prohibit this use or when a FSD must be replaced? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is a Pathway Survivability of Level 1 allowed for an elementary school and high school?
If not, what kind of protection would be required? Are there any performance alternatives? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe If I have a machine with a carbon dioxide extinguishing system in a room equipped with an automatic sprinkler system.
Does the carbon dioxide system panel need to be tied into main fire alarm control panel? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a Business occupancy building that is being remodeled and new RTUs units are being installed.
There was a mechanical inspection done recently and the inspector is asking for duct smoke detectors on the supply-side of units under 2,000 CFM. The units supply air to common areas to a single floor and don’t physically share ducts or plenums. There is no smoke detector coverage since it’s a sprinklered building. We do have smoke detectors above fire alarm equipment are required. I tried searching for an answer in IBC, IFC, and NFPA standards, but couldn’t find a definite answer. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What code or standard prescribes the location and/or number of heat / smoke / gas detectors needed for an industrial / chemical plant?
We have an open steel structure with processing equipment on most floors, which are essentially grating – no roof and no walls – containing flammable and toxic chemicals. We’ve planned to place some detection in strategic spots downwind of the flare (southmost) and tankfarm (same flammables) and there are some single-story buildings and other outside equipment like a cooling tower, nitrogen generation, boiler – all downwind of the tankfarm and open structure mentioned. So, some of all types where personnel could be in any area especially the lab/control room and electrical building mentioned above. The modular building supplier may have those taken care of but I need to check behind them. The majority are outside and in the nine-story structure. I plan to have flame and gas detectors throughout depending on the correct guidance. Thanks in advance for your take! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I'm currently looking at a water treatment plant.
Electrical design wanted to coordinate using the same horn/strobes to notify for a chlorine gas leak, as it would avoid being redundant and putting up their own horn/strobes to go off during a leak. This would require hooking up a non-fire related notification appliance to the fire alarm panel. What are thoughts on this? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe An engineering firm has insisted that a waterflow activation shutdown the HVAC system and cited NFPA 90A: A.6.4.3.
A.6.4.3 Where automatic water sprinklers are provided and zoned to coordinate with the HVAC zones, their water flow switches should initiate devices for the functions described in Chapter 6. Each floor of the building has one HVAC zone and one sprinkler zone (floor control valves). The HVAC system has the appropriate duct detectors and functions. The only instance I have experienced using flow switches for HVAC control is when there is no automatic smoke detection and the flow switch is used to start the smoke control system for that zone. What are your thoughts? Is a waterflow switch required to shutdown an HVAC system on this premise? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a 3-story building using machine roomless elevators (MRL).
I have an inspector asking for a smoke detector at the top of an elevator shaft even though there is no sprinkler at the top of the shaft. There are roomless machine rooms on the first/ground floor lowest level. We installed smoke detectors in each of these roomless machine rooms putting the smoke/heat detector as close to the object it is protecting. There is no ceiling for these. The inspector says he wants the smoke at the top of the shaft because of the machine room at the bottom floor and says the smoke will rise and we need the detector at the top of the shaft. I wrote him a book report that NFPA 72 allows for smoke detectors to be installed close the object they are protecting. There is a sprinkler in the pit and we have a heat next to it within 24 inches. I really think that the heat in the pit should generate a recall to the alternate level and they have us shunt tripping it? Some details on the equipment location: the machinery is on the lowest-level inside the shaft. It is accessible by a man door from the side of the shaft. Because of the machine being inside the shaft, is a smoke detector required at the top of the shaft? The inspector is asking for the smoke detectors at the top of the shaft because the Machine room is in the shaft at the 1st floor. He says there is no ceiling in the machine room so he wants the smoke detector at the top of the shaft. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I had always been taught that we do not allow more than one fire alarm system within the same building.
Does anyone know where that might come from (NFPA 72 or International Fire Code)? Do you allow a Dedicated Function (sprinkler monitoring system) in addition to a fire alarm system, which are separate? We have a multi-tenant strip shopping center, where developers used to build the shell with sprinkler and a sprinkler monitoring system, but a tenant like a restaurant might come in later to build out and need to put in a fire alarm system. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How would you typically access a smoke detector at the top of an elevator shaft to change a battery or test it?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a Type-I, non-combustible condominium building over 75-feet tall.
The existing ceiling is concrete coated with filigree, then a popcorn finish. For the renovation (and adding lighting), a new ceiling is being dropped using a 1-1/2" steel hat track then 1/2" drywall for a total of a 2-inch drop. Existing smoke detectors are 10-year battery, surface-mounted to the filigree ceiling. They are not linked or part of the building fire alarm system. There is one fire alarm speaker in each unit tied to the building fire alarm system. Do the smoke detectors have to be flush with the new drywall surface, or could they be left on the filigree ceiling? I believe the speaker can be left attached to the filigree ceiling and be in a pocket (or a void) in the new drywall ceiling with a metal speaker cover. The sound is actually amplified. I've never heard or seen a smoke detector being installed below or even with the surface of the ceiling, though. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Looking for some back history here - why is heat sensor detection temperature 57 degrees C?
On what basis was sprinkler temperature determined to be 68 degrees C? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a stand alone open-air pool pavilion with no attached building.
There is a gas grill under the roof with a very elaborate hood/exhaust/Ansul system. There is no fire alarm system in this pool pavilion. The Fire Inspector wants the Ansul system monitored by the clubhouse fire alarm system that is 100-ft away. Is he correct by code? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a building that was designed with exit width and stair width per occupant using the exception CBC 1005.3.1 for a sprinklered building with EVACS (emergency voice/alarm communication system), however, the fire alarm design drawings show horns/strobes.
Found out through the fire alarm deferred submittal corrections. Changing the width of stairs and exit doors is not an option as the shell is already built. The EVACS option will cause delays, cost impacts, and material procurement challenges and not advised by FD because building has inherent ambient noise associated with building operations. What options do we have? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How many duct detectors are allowed on a single zone?
The maximum number of flow switches allowed is five, but are there any requirements or restrictions for duct detectors beyond the equipment capability? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Looking for some insight on a project I'm reviewing.
We have an 1,800,000 sqft storage occupancy with business and assembly mixed in. It has a 2-story open foyer main entrance. The graphic annunciator and fire alarm panel are in the same location. My problem is the 2-story space is all glass around the means of egress. How would sprinkler protection and using the the graphic annunciator work in a all-glass space? I'm looking to get sprinkler coverage at the glass window, which are floor-to-ceiling. Also, the outside wall in the corner of the building is all glass too. Looking for insight on how to approach this and any concerns you might have regarding an all-glass space. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is there a code requirement - IBC, IFC, or somewhere else - for a Knox Box?
I understand some jurisdictions amend code to require a specific key box - and I'm sure a specific "Knox Box" brand isn't written into code - but just a requirement that triggers the fire department key box to begin with. I've always asked the jurisdictions whether they wanted one, and they usually do, but I've never found a requirement that I probably should know about by now. Also, I've had this missed on many a job in a scope gap between subcontractors and the general contractor. What division would supply and install these? As a consultant I usually get a bunch of pointed fingers elsewhere anytime I ask who is planning on providing it. Thanks in advance, appreciate the variety of perspectives here. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are installing an elevator (freight) at an advanced water treatment plant. The doors open at two locations:
Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What are the required system components for a Fire Alarm System versus a Fire Sprinkler Monitoring System?
I've ran into a debate on this in multiple jurisdictions. I know a fire alarm system has occupant notification and initiating devices, such as the smoke detectors, pull stations, waterflow, etc., whereas sprinkler monitoring is just waterflow notification. But, is occupant notification required for a Sprinkler Monitoring System? Furthermore, do horn/strobes need to have a secondary power supply, like Fire Alarm System components do? Is a smoke detector required above the panel/radio/dialer? I know it depends on the local AHJ, but I'm looking for some guidance here... I am the local AHJ. Thanks for your input! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project with a unique strobe situation.
New installation into an existing building, Department of Defense so we're under UFC criteria. The new fire alarm and mass notification system uses Alert strobes (as is common), but in some portions of the building there are blue security strobes. These are used as a warning with non-classified personnel are in the area. These blue strobes flash at the same rate as the fire alarm/mass notification strobes, but they are not synchronized. The blue security strobes are manually activated at an attendant's desk. Is there a requirement to synchronize these different systems, from UFC criteria or elsewhere? Fundamentally, the strobe synchronization issue and potential epileptic exposure is the same concern whether or not it's a concert, fire alarm system, security or dancing club - I certainly understand that we don't want the hazard from the strobes. I do wonder if any of you have come across this, and/or what your opinion might be to handle the situation. We're on closeout for the project and there has been explicit requirement to override, synchronize or shutdown either the fire alarm or security strobes. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe For domestic (US) military work, we're generally required to comply with the Buy American Act.
However, our fire alarm manufacturer's batteries (every listed brand) is sourced internationally. Is there some waiver to this requirement for specifically-sourced pieces of equipment? Or is there some third-party battery manufacturer that's accepted outside the listing? I'm wondering how others deal with the Buy American requirements when it doesn't appear we have any options. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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