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Are stand-alone clean agent systems required to be monitored by a supervising station or constantly attended location?
I am reviewing plans for a small, remote equipment shed that is equipped with a clean agent suppression system. The building is remote enough and small enough that IBC wouldn't require a fire alarm or sprinkler system. The designer claims that it doesn't have to report out, but I think they're wrong. I think this would fall under the IBC 907.3 requirements for a dedicated function panel, which still requires supervision of the detectors at a "constantly attended location." Since the building isn't constantly attended, it would have to dial out to the central receiving station, not just to some guy's email. From what I've gathered, a full-blown FACP wouldn't be required, but a dedicated panel to dial out would be. What is your take on this? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
9 Comments
Suppose you have a small enough elevator lobby with hold-open doors.
Could you use one detector to activate both recall and door closing, so long as you comply with the spacing requirements for both the doors (based on ceilings) and distance to the elevator(s)? I don't see why you couldn't if you have an intelligent system that could achieve this through programming, and I don't see anything in NFPA 72 that would prohibit this either. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is it mandatory for a smoke detector to be installed directly in front of a single elevator, at the center of the elevator door, for elevator recall?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Hi, I am a Fire Alarm system installer and have been active for 25 years.
I am writing today because the change from the UBC to the IBC, or some other change that I am unaware of, has removed the requirements to do anything in an existing un sprinklered building in Washington state. Looking at the requirements for E occupancy, specifically for a sprinklered building, it says to install heat detectors in most locations. There is no guidance for what to do in an existing non-sprinklered building. This has led some to remove smoke detectors from projects and install only heat detectors other than the one for the panel and power supplies, treating sprinklered buildings and non-sprinklered buildings the same. I am alarmed by this and think it’s a mistake we will regret. On a sprinklered building, you have suppression, so the fire will likely be in a controllable state when first responders arrive. It makes sense that early warning would be redundant, other than areas like exit pathways or sleeping areas where someone could be overcome with smoke or the exit path may be blocked. Early warning devices are necessary in those cases. If we get the people out safely, then the firemen don’t need to go in. Early warning devices achieve that. But on a non-sprinklered building there is no suppression. Heat detectors do not go into alarm until the fire reaches them, they are mounted on the ceiling so the walls and building will be on fire before they activate. Smoke detectors will go off when the fire is smoldering getting the first responders on the way before the building is on fire. Oh, and getting the people out of the building before it’s on fire, one of my personal favorites. My goals, 1. I wanted to add some beam smoke detectors over the gym floor area and some smoke detectors over the stage due to the large amounts of fabric. 2. I intended on replacing all the devices on the permitted installation with like for like. Resulting in smoke detectors in the areas that currently have smoke detectors. Both of my submittals (to the architect) showing smoke detectors were rejected and I was instructed to show heat detectors. I have no way to argue for the smoke detectors, there is no guidance I can find. We are removing all the life safety out of the life safety systems. Is there something I am missing, is there a way I can fight to get smoke detection in the halls and classrooms that do not have an exit doors? I looked at the 2021 IFC chapter 11, specifically 1103. I hoped I had found my solution but reading it more carefully, I see the intent of that statement is the table. I can’t find anything on that table that will keep the early warming detection in the life safety system. I know the goal is to reduce false alarms. Smoke detectors have a bad reputation for unwanted alarms. On this project they were suffering from false alarms. That is the reason they are wanting to eliminate smoke detectors. With in a half hour of being on site the existing system went into alarm. I viewed the point, found out it was a 135 fixed temp heat installed in an attic that was at 150. So Heat detectors false alarm as well when incorrectly applied to the environment or poorly maintained. Are we going to regret this or am i just an old man with old ways of doing things? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How have people been addressing the IFC (2021) Section 907.5.2.1.3.2 requiring 520Hz single/multiple station smoke alarms in residential units being addressed?
It sounds like there are no 520 Hz smoke alarms available on the on the market meet these requirements. We have a roughly 300-unit building and the AHJ is pushing us to put smoke detectors with sounder bases in each unit instead of 120v smoke alarms. We know this could be done, but the cost impacts would be substantial and the future maintenance and inspections in the building would be very difficult. This is the first time we've seen this be pushed by an AHJ, so looking for information on how others have handled this. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We were looking to tie multiple fire alarm systems together from various vendors such as Honeywell, Siemens, Notifier, intermesh, etc. The end goal is to bring all the zone data for a building to a Siemens Desigo Fire Server.
Currently, the Monitoring-Only Solution Assembly (MOSA) ring will not accommodate the Honeywell, Notifier, or other non-Siemens panels to bring in a complete data stream in. We are limited to the standard supervisory signals for trouble, alarm, duct detectors, pull station, and smoke detectors as a limited set of data. Does anyone have an interface that would bring multiple data points from other vendors' fire alarm panels to the Desigo front-end? Siemens and Honeywell do not support each other’s components. The MOSA ring is a Siemens product. A 3rd party would be required to facilitate the interface panel. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can we connect 2 or three buildings to the same fire alarm system? What about sprinkler?
What code basis (IBC or NFPA 13/72) would allow or disallow multiple buildings on the same system? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe If you have an open office area with (2) AHUs, each AHU supply fan provides 1,500 cfm of supply air and return air that is fully ducted and has no common plenum.
Would duct detectors be provided on the supply side of each AHU? Do you combine the "CFM" since both units serve the same area? If not, would you ever cumulatively add multiple units of CFM? This has been an ongoing question as each of our AHJs sees it differently. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does a standalone mass notification system (MNS) require a smoke detector in front of the panel for a drug reduction facility?
The facility is 2,100 sqft and houses a minimum of 11 persons. Basically a drug testing and counseling facility. No Fire Alarm required for the building; being governed by UFC 3-600-01 for the US Air Force. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What are the requirements for installing a smoke detector above a suspended ceiling?
Is it simply the same spacing rules as if the smoke detector were below the ceiling? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an airline opening a training facility in our jurisdiction. The building is fully sprinklered and has a fire alarm.
They wish to install a static airplane fuselage for training airplane cabin personnel. This would be a functioning fuselage with standard airplane doors with ramps. Has anyone had an experience with this? This is a fully sprinklered building so our thinking is the fuselage needs sprinkler coverage inside. Is this correct? This building has a fire alarm system so our thinking is the fuselage needs notification devices. Is this correct? The fuselage doors do not meet the code requirement for egress doors (locks, swing, etc), how is this addressed? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe From the 2023 Edition of NFPA 855, Section 14.6.4 "Outdoor storage areas with an aggregate area greater than 400 sqft (37.1 sqm) shall be provided with a fire alarm system activated by a radiant-energy detection system with occupant notification installed in accordance with NFPA 72."
How do you interpret this requirement if there is outdoor storage of Li-Ion batteries without any sort of structure and 300' from any building, and there are no occupants to notify? Thanks for your help! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does a security grill utilized in school corridors required to be tied into the fire alarm?
If so, the concept should be that the grill in the closed position should return to the open position when fire alarm is activated, correct? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is there any code that requires that fire alarm coverage be provided in areas that are in the process of major modifications, including asbestos abatement work?
We have a project which will undergo major asbestos abatement and are getting pushback that the fire alarm system must remain operational in the space during the renovation work. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Looking to learn more about NFPA 72-2019 18.5.5.7 Performance-Based Alternative for visible notification. Currently have a single 95cd wall-mounted horn-strobe approximately centered in an club office room that is approximately 41-ft by 34-ft, ceilings at 11-ft. The is a wall on the far end that is about 10-ft and 9-ft off the back wall and full height. Table 18.5.5.5.1(a) is based off direct line of sight is my understanding, but would give a maximum room size of 50-ft x 50-ft. Are there any resources available to help understand how to quantify the that 0.0375 lumen/ft² of illumination is met from reflection of surfaces behind the wall? I'm sure there are more inputs that are needed but just looking to get started at how to attack the problem. Thanks in advance Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe  Sometimes we would not want to evacuate entire buildings in a fire alarm condition, even outside of healthcare facilities.
If a fire alarm is programmed to evacuate only "affected" areas, what defines the boundaries of the affected area? What building features are required to implement a defend-in-place strategy, in a large Industrial Facility F-1? Where can I find the specific rating requirements for the fire and smoke barriers separating "affected areas"/zones? Looking to understand this concept and the requirements around it better; thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Fire alarm question for an ICC state that adopts 2012 IBC/IFC & NFPA 72, 2010 edition.
I have an existing mixed use F-1 & S-1 occupancy. This building was originally built in 1910 with two additions over the years. The building sustained fire damage a year ago and is undergoing repairs, no additions, just repairing fire damage that was quite extensive. The building is not sprinkled (not required when built). They had a partial alarm system installed about 35 years ago. The insurance will cover the cost to repair/replace the partial system only, which will require a new FACP, wiring and initiating devices. Insurance will pay for a new system to cover the entire building, if required by code. We cannot find anything in NFPA 72 that requires the entire building to have alarm coverage. There is no requirement in the IBC for F occupancies (single story, grade level) to have an alarm system. We do see where non-required systems shall be allowed to be partial. The question is, since this alarm system is being modified, is there any requirement for the entire building to be alarmed in NFPA 72? The AHJ would also like to see the entire building to be alarmed, but doesn’t think he can require it by code since it would technically be a non-required system per the IBC. The only thing he could think of was the requirement for manual pull stations at each exit since the building is not sprinkled. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Fighting with myself this morning on whether interior horn/strobes are required for a project going on in my jurisdiction.
It's a 14,000 sqft tenant space in a sprinklered strip mall. The landlord fire alarm panel only monitors sprinkler system and three duct detectors. Under the 2018 IBC / IFC, no manual fire alarm system is required. Section 907.2.7.1 adds confusion for me regarding occupant notification. It allows an exception for a constantly attended locations to provide instructions in the event of alarm activation from manual pull OR waterflow. Given no constantly attended location exists, would the sprinkler system in this case require interior horn/strobes within the tenant space? The exterior bell is on the rear of the building with a landlord maintenance space in-between. If there was a sprinkler flow in the adjacent tenant space, how would the space in question be notified to evacuate? The architect on the project feels nothing is required inside the space. Maybe I'm taking a common sense approach to this but want to be sure I have code to back me up in requiring interior occupant notification. This is for a discount retail tenant. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In NFPA 72, does Pathway Survivability apply only to Emergency Communication systems?
In the 2019 Edition of NFPA 72, Section 12.4 stipulates required protection regarding various levels. Section 24.3 Pathway Survivability defines requirements for different levels of declaration. Chapter 12 applies for all fire alarm wiring. However, the title of Chapter 24 is for Emergency Communication systems. Does pathway survivability apply only for Emergency Communication systems only? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Four-story office building wants to shut down five large air handlers nightly. Purpose is to lower energy costs when building is unoccupied. This will cause all fire/smoke dampers (FSDs) to close (the smoke detectors in return ducts need minimum operational air velocity).
The FSDs are mostly original from 1985-1988. Only UL tested for 5000 cycles and no dynamic. I cannot find a code reference to prohibit this and believe that the FSDs are already near the end of their functional lifespan. Many have been replaced due to bad actuators, binding jack shafts and missing blades. Anyone know of a code reference to prohibit this use or when a FSD must be replaced? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is a Pathway Survivability of Level 1 allowed for an elementary school and high school?
If not, what kind of protection would be required? Are there any performance alternatives? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe If I have a machine with a carbon dioxide extinguishing system in a room equipped with an automatic sprinkler system.
Does the carbon dioxide system panel need to be tied into main fire alarm control panel? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a Business occupancy building that is being remodeled and new RTUs units are being installed.
There was a mechanical inspection done recently and the inspector is asking for duct smoke detectors on the supply-side of units under 2,000 CFM. The units supply air to common areas to a single floor and don’t physically share ducts or plenums. There is no smoke detector coverage since it’s a sprinklered building. We do have smoke detectors above fire alarm equipment are required. I tried searching for an answer in IBC, IFC, and NFPA standards, but couldn’t find a definite answer. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What code or standard prescribes the location and/or number of heat / smoke / gas detectors needed for an industrial / chemical plant?
We have an open steel structure with processing equipment on most floors, which are essentially grating – no roof and no walls – containing flammable and toxic chemicals. We’ve planned to place some detection in strategic spots downwind of the flare (southmost) and tankfarm (same flammables) and there are some single-story buildings and other outside equipment like a cooling tower, nitrogen generation, boiler – all downwind of the tankfarm and open structure mentioned. So, some of all types where personnel could be in any area especially the lab/control room and electrical building mentioned above. The modular building supplier may have those taken care of but I need to check behind them. The majority are outside and in the nine-story structure. I plan to have flame and gas detectors throughout depending on the correct guidance. Thanks in advance for your take! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I'm currently looking at a water treatment plant.
Electrical design wanted to coordinate using the same horn/strobes to notify for a chlorine gas leak, as it would avoid being redundant and putting up their own horn/strobes to go off during a leak. This would require hooking up a non-fire related notification appliance to the fire alarm panel. What are thoughts on this? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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