From Joe - first - thank you for being a part of this community. This forum really has turned into something outstanding, and far better than I could have hoped for when we brought it to life a few years ago. You may be surprised to know just how popular this is now with over 4,000 daily email subscribers. Keep up the great work, and thanks for being part of it!

Today I'd like to open up a discussion and ask for some feedback on a draft we created for design of Fire Alarm for Elevators.

A lot has changed in this space. I first put this draft version together a year ago, and now with the 2022 Edition of NFPA 72 out (among other code updates). 

Well, now a year later, it's time I kick this into gear and get a formalized version together. Before I wrap this up and get through my own updates, I'd like to extend an invite; if you're a fire alarm junkie and you hear intelligibility whale noises in your nightmares, please take a look and let me know what feedback I might be able to incorporate. 

We're all in this together and we're certainly trying to get things spot-on, so as always I appreciate and welcome the input. Feel free to post below, or if you'd rather just let me know directly, at joe@meyerfire.com.

​Thanks so much for being a part of what we're doing here!

​- Joe Meyer

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We have a military project in the US, so the project is mandated to be compliant with UFC criteria.

We are required to locate an LOC (Local Operating Console) within 200-ft of all portions of a building.

Is exiting the building, and re-entering, to access an LOC permissible? 

If we have exterior-only mechanical rooms, electrical rooms, or maintenance bays (which each only access the outside), then at what point would an LOC be required in each of these spaces?

I'm not trying to be facetious or dramatic, just looking for outside opinion on working through a gray area in my mind.

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Is there a code or standard that specifies floor clearance in front of a fire pump controller cabinet?

I am installing a fire pump in an existing building which has a controller with a transfer switch. Of course the fire pump room size presents clearance issues.

I have clearances I need for sprinkler pipe, but I do not know the working clearances required in front of the cabinets. 

I do have door swing clearance, but was wondering about a working clearance. Thanks in advance.

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​If NFPA 75 isn't an explicitly adopted code by the AHJ or not referenced by any of the other applicable codes is smoke detection required in a raised floor area?

NFPA 72 provides location guidance but other than that I can't find in NFPA 101/IBC where smoke detection would be required in the raise floor space. Not every jurisdiction/client adopts NFPA 75, I'm unsure what other code or standard would require below floor smoke detection.

Thanks in advance.

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We are trying to complete system testing for a closed-loop system and a waterflow alarm is not reporting back to the fire alarm panel.

Is there a good sequence of operations for a closed-loop system?

More specifically, what order of events needs to happen when a sprinkler activates?

Thanks.

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Will there ever be a single-station photoelectric smoke detector with a low-frequency sounder base for hotel and apartment buildings?

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When would a parking garage require an occupant notification system?

NFPA 101 has some fairly clear guidelines but isn't applicable in my project, the 2015 ICC codes are.

I can't find anything in Section 907 for S occupancies and Section 406 doesn't really give much direction either. Open, enclosed, above or below grade, and above or below other occupancies; It doesn't seem super straight-forward.

Thanks in advance.

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The 2019 Edition of NFPA 1221 (Standard for the Installation, Maintenance, and Use of Emergency Services Communications Systems) Section 4.5.2 requires that communication centers "be provided with an automatic fire detection, alarm and notification system in accordance with NFPA 72."

But what constitutes "automatic fire detection?"

I'm thinking this is alluding to wanting full smoke coverage of the area/space but the language of "fire detection" seems intentionally vague. A supervised automatic suppression system would meet this definition I think; its seems excessive to think a constantly attended room with fully sprinkler coverage would also require full smoke detection.

Is there some other guidance I need to consider here? Is this defined elsewhere?

​Thanks in advance.

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We're currently working on a school project. There's a suspended ceiling throughout much of the school. The project requires "total coverage", but I'm not sure whether this applies above the ceiling, below the ceiling, or both.

We're under NFPA 72, but 72 does not seem to clarify this either way.

Are smoke detectors required above and below ceilings, for "total coverage"?

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Is it possible (maybe someone has encountered this already) to trigger a false alarm on a VESDA system or photoelectric smoke detector from refrigerant discharge mixture that contains both refrigerant and oil?

I'm concerned about the combination possibly affecting the fire alarm system.

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I'm working on a 4-story multifamily structure.

The structure has one common entrance, but is comprised of four separate buildings on four separate lots, all on the same city block.

There is a fire separation between each building.

I've been trying to find code language indicating that each building is required by code to have a separate fire alarm system, but have not found anything remotely definitive.

Would appreciate code reference/help here.

Most likely going to request a variance to use one system across all four buildings, but for my personal edification would really appreciate an appropriate IBC or NFPA 72 code reference.

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Is there a requirement to monitor a fire pump or fire protection sprinkler riser room's temperature with the fire alarm system?

It is clear from NFPA 72 that the device needs to be added to the fire alarm panel if it is present.

NFPA 13, 14, and 20 don't seem to have a need to monitor the room's temperature.

From NFPA 72 (2016 Edition): Section 17.16.5 Room Temperature Supervisory Signal - Initiating Device. A room temperature supervisory device shall indicate a decrease in room temperature to 40 degrees (4.4 C) and its restoration to above 40-degrees (4.4 C).

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We have a specification for a project that required calibrated smoke testing for a project that only has two new smoke detectors. 

Is there a code basis for this test, rather than just a can of smoke?

This project is under UFC 3-600-01 / UFGS spec 283176. The smoke detectors are new from the factory, clean, and I find this to be a relatively useless and expensive test. Would welcome any input/insight here.

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I was wondering what systems others have found that will work for smoke detection in a challenging environment (e.g. large high bay environment with a test stand/dynamometer)?

We currently have an OSID dual-beam detector system but it has had many unwanted alarms that despite troubleshooting with the manufacturer, we cannot determine the cause.

I know more detail might be needed but just seeing what systems others have found that will work. A conventional beam detector will not work in this environment. A forklift and crane can be operated in the space with a large overhead door open.

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NFPA 101 has commentary that states that kitchen hood suppression systems are not required to activate public mode alarm for fire alarm systems.

Our Authority Having Jurisdiction stated that since the kitchen hood systems are provided in lieu of required sprinkler systems, then they are required to activate public mode alarm.

What is the generally accepted practice for kitchen hood suppression monitoring?

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I have a fire wall on a two-story building providing separation for purposes of having two control areas.

There is a small roll-up door on the 2nd floor (in the main egress corridor of the building) in the firewall that can be opened to bring up items from the 1st floor to the 2nd through a lift from the 1st floor.

Is it code compliant to only have smoke detectors in the immediate area of the roll-up door (on each side) trigger the fire pin that closes the door, or, does every single smoke detector (it's a large building) need to trigger the roll-up (fire) door to close?

I am not finding a concrete code section (IBC or NFPA) that all detectors need to trigger the roll-up door to close.

Again, it's a very large building with many detectors. Thanks in advance for any answers/feedback.

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A project I'm on has a lobby area with a 35-foot tall ceiling next to the elevator door. 

NFPA 72-2010/2013 Section 17.7.3.1.3 and 17.7.3.1.4 allows a smoke detector within 60-inches of the top of each elevator door to protect the opening. This can be used for elevator recall.

In addition to this smoke detector, do I also need one at the ceiling (35-feet) for normal coverage?

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Are manual pull stations required to have any specific level of illumination at all times provided by emergency lighting?

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For a smoke control stair pressurization system designed in accordance with IBC 909 and IMC 513, does the code require a duct smoke detector on the supply fan?

Does the installation of a smoke damper at the stairway boundary factor into this requirement? (i.e. IBC 717.3.3.2 requires a detector within 5 feet of a smoke damper). Normally this motorized smoke damper is closed and then automatically opens upon activation of a specific fire alarm signal.

NFPA 92 6.4.6.2 does require a duct detector on the stair pressurization supply fan; however, I'm unaware of a similar requirement in IBC/IMC. NFPA's intent is to detect smoke on the air supply and shut down the unit before smoke compromises the stairway.

For elevator hoistways that require smoke control, IBC 909.21.4.2 states to provide a detector. I would have expected a general statement in IBC 909.12 with the same intention as NFPA 92; however, I do not see a similar requirement in the IBC/IMC for stairways.

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Is a two way communication system required when an elevator is installed (only for convenience) but is NOT required or designed to be part of the accessible means of egress - assuming none of the exceptions in 1009.8 apply?

Refer to CBC 1009.8: "A two-way communication system complying with Sections 1009.8.1 and 1009.8.2 shall be provided at the landing serving each elevator or bank of elevators on each accessible floor that is one or more stories above or below the level of exit discharge."

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NFPA 72, 2016 Edition uses the phrase "2-hour fire-rated construction" in a few places; what does this refer to?

It's confusing to me since a variety of elements within the building could be 2-hour rated. For example, NFPA 72-2016 Section 24.3.13.7 states:

"Two-way in-building wired emergency communication systems shall have a pathway survivability of Level 2 or Level 3. Exception: Level 1 shall be permitted where the building is less than 2-hour fire-rated construction."

Buildings are not designated with a fire-rating, elements are. How do you interpret this?

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While working in a MEP/FP firm, we are expanding to do projects in other states and learning to understand the different state requirements for Fire Protection / Fire Alarm.

What is the best way to go about obtaining each state's requirements for what is required in an upfront submittal?

For example some states accept design drawings that only require denoting the hazard level whereas other require full design, calculations, and a written narrative. I understand and agree providing more detail is typically better; however, budgets can be significantly affected (negatively/positively) if only a hazard classification is required compared to a full design.

Besides prior knowledge from working in a different state or jurisdiction, what is the best approach in determining what is required?

Typically I start with searching what is required from the building code, but that does not always tell you what you need to submit for drawings, permit documentation, etc. It would be great to have a website that gives an example of what is an acceptable layout/design for each state.

Hoping to hear any suggestions / methods that others use to determine what is required.

Moderator Note: If there is significant interest in this topic, we'd be happy to open up a survey for areas that do require "full design" as an upfront submittal.

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What is a building owner's responsibility to provide sprinkler system plans and calculations to new tenants and/or inspectors?

Is there any responsibility to provide these?

Code sections would be appreciated, thanks.

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Has anyone come across a dual riser (dual-feed) sprinkler system in an office tower, with only a single inspector's test?

What is the proper method of testing each flow switch?

In most cases, only the flow switch nearest the inspector's test will operate in a timely manner. Some inspectors will isolate and test, others believe the system should be tested under normal conditions with both control valves open.

Is the deficiency the lack of a second test connection, or that the flow switch doesn't operate within 90 seconds (or even 5 minutes)? Alternatively, is there no deficiency at all?

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