Fighting with myself this morning on whether interior horn/strobes are required for a project going on in my jurisdiction.

It's a 14,000 sqft tenant space in a sprinklered strip mall. The landlord fire alarm panel only monitors sprinkler system and three duct detectors.

Under the 2018 IBC / IFC, no manual fire alarm system is required. Section 907.2.7.1 adds confusion for me regarding occupant notification. It allows an exception for a constantly attended locations to provide instructions in the event of alarm activation from manual pull OR waterflow.

Given no constantly attended location exists, would the sprinkler system in this case require interior horn/strobes within the tenant space?

The exterior bell is on the rear of the building with a landlord maintenance space in-between.

If there was a sprinkler flow in the adjacent tenant space, how would the space in question be notified to evacuate?

The architect on the project feels nothing is required inside the space. Maybe I'm taking a common sense approach to this but want to be sure I have code to back me up in requiring interior occupant notification. This is for a discount retail tenant.

​Thanks in advance.

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In NFPA 72, does Pathway Survivability apply only to Emergency Communication systems?

In the 2019 Edition of NFPA 72, Section 12.4 stipulates required protection regarding various levels. Section 24.3 Pathway Survivability defines requirements for different levels of declaration. Chapter 12 applies for all fire alarm wiring.

However, the title of Chapter 24 is for Emergency Communication systems. Does pathway survivability apply only for Emergency Communication systems only?

Thanks in advance.

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Four-story office building wants to shut down five large air handlers nightly. Purpose is to lower energy costs when building is unoccupied. This will cause all fire/smoke dampers (FSDs) to close (the smoke detectors in return ducts need minimum operational air velocity).

The FSDs are mostly original from 1985-1988. Only UL tested for 5000 cycles and no dynamic.

I cannot find a code reference to prohibit this and believe that the FSDs are already near the end of their functional lifespan. Many have been replaced due to bad actuators, binding jack shafts and missing blades.

Anyone know of a code reference to prohibit this use or when a FSD must be replaced?

Thanks in advance.

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Is a Pathway Survivability of Level 1 allowed for an elementary school and high school?

If not, what kind of protection would be required? Are there any performance alternatives?

Thanks in advance.

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If I have a machine with a carbon dioxide extinguishing system in a room equipped with an automatic sprinkler system.

Does the carbon dioxide system panel need to be tied into main fire alarm control panel?

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I have a Business occupancy building that is being remodeled and new RTUs units are being installed.

There was a mechanical inspection done recently and the inspector is asking for duct smoke detectors on the supply-side of units under 2,000 CFM.

The units supply air to common areas to a single floor and don’t physically share ducts or plenums.

There is no smoke detector coverage since it’s a sprinklered building. We do have smoke detectors above fire alarm equipment are required.

I tried searching for an answer in IBC, IFC, and NFPA standards, but couldn’t find a definite answer.

Thanks in advance.

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What code or standard prescribes the location and/or number of heat / smoke / gas detectors needed for an industrial / chemical plant?

We have an open steel structure with processing equipment on most floors, which are essentially grating – no roof and no walls – containing flammable and toxic chemicals. 

We’ve planned to place some detection in strategic spots downwind of the flare (southmost) and tankfarm (same flammables) and there are some single-story buildings and other outside equipment like a cooling tower, nitrogen generation, boiler – all downwind of the tankfarm and open structure mentioned. 

So, some of all types where personnel could be in any area especially the lab/control room and electrical building mentioned above.  The modular building supplier may have those taken care of but I need to check behind them. 

The majority are outside and in the nine-story structure.  I plan to have flame and gas detectors throughout depending on the correct guidance.  Thanks in advance for your take!

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I'm currently looking at a water treatment plant.

Electrical design wanted to coordinate using the same horn/strobes to notify for a chlorine gas leak, as it would avoid being redundant and putting up their own horn/strobes to go off during a leak.

This would require hooking up a non-fire related notification appliance to the fire alarm panel.

What are thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance.

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We have a 3-story building using machine roomless elevators (MRL).

I have an inspector asking for a smoke detector at the top of an elevator shaft even though there is no sprinkler at the top of the shaft.

There are roomless machine rooms on the first/ground floor lowest level. We installed smoke detectors in each of these roomless machine rooms putting the smoke/heat detector as close to the object it is protecting. There is no ceiling for these.

The inspector says he wants the smoke at the top of the shaft because of the machine room at the bottom floor and says the smoke will rise and we need the detector at the top of the shaft.

I wrote him a book report that NFPA 72 allows for smoke detectors to be installed close the object they are protecting.

There is a sprinkler in the pit and we have a heat next to it within 24 inches. I really think that the heat in the pit should generate a recall to the alternate level and they have us shunt tripping it?

Some details on the equipment location: the machinery is on the lowest-level inside the shaft. It is accessible by a man door from the side of the shaft.

Because of the machine being inside the shaft, is a smoke detector required at the top of the shaft?

The inspector is asking for the smoke detectors at the top of the shaft because the Machine room is in the shaft at the 1st floor. He says there is no ceiling in the machine room so he wants the smoke detector at the top of the shaft. 

Thanks in advance.

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I had always been taught that we do not allow more than one fire alarm system within the same building.

Does anyone know where that might come from (NFPA 72 or International Fire Code)?

Do you allow a Dedicated Function (sprinkler monitoring system) in addition to a fire alarm system, which are separate?

We have a multi-tenant strip shopping center, where developers used to build the shell with sprinkler and a sprinkler monitoring system, but a tenant like a restaurant might come in later to build out and need to put in a fire alarm system.

Thanks in advance.

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How would you typically access a smoke detector at the top of an elevator shaft to change a battery or test it?

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We have a Type-I, non-combustible condominium building over 75-feet tall.

The existing ceiling is concrete coated with filigree, then a popcorn finish.

For the renovation (and adding lighting), a new ceiling is being dropped using a 1-1/2" steel hat track then 1/2" drywall for a total of a 2-inch drop.

Existing smoke detectors are 10-year battery, surface-mounted to the filigree ceiling. They are not linked or part of the building fire alarm system. There is one fire alarm speaker in each unit tied to the building fire alarm system.

Do the smoke detectors have to be flush with the new drywall surface, or could they be left on the filigree ceiling?

I believe the speaker can be left attached to the filigree ceiling and be in a pocket (or a void) in the new drywall ceiling with a metal speaker cover. The sound is actually amplified.

I've never heard or seen a smoke detector being installed below or even with the surface of the ceiling, though. 

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Looking for some back history here - why is heat sensor detection temperature 57 degrees C?

On what basis was sprinkler temperature determined to be 68 degrees C?

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We have a building that was designed with exit width and stair width per occupant using the exception CBC 1005.3.1 for a sprinklered building with EVACS (emergency voice/alarm communication system), however, the fire alarm design drawings show horns/strobes.

Found out through the fire alarm deferred submittal corrections.

Changing the width of stairs and exit doors is not an option as the shell is already built.

The EVACS option will cause delays, cost impacts, and material procurement challenges and not advised by FD because building has inherent ambient noise associated with building operations.

What options do we have?

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How many duct detectors are allowed on a single zone?

The maximum number of flow switches allowed is five, but are there any requirements or restrictions for duct detectors beyond the equipment capability?

Thanks in advance.

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Looking for some insight on a project I'm reviewing.

We have an 1,800,000 sqft storage occupancy with business and assembly mixed in. It has a 2-story open foyer main entrance. The graphic annunciator and fire alarm panel are in the same location.

My problem is the 2-story space is all glass around the means of egress.

How would sprinkler protection and using the the graphic annunciator work in a all-glass space?

I'm looking to get sprinkler coverage at the glass window, which are floor-to-ceiling. Also, the outside wall in the corner of the building is all glass too.

Looking for insight on how to approach this and any concerns you might have regarding an all-glass space.

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Is there a code requirement - IBC, IFC, or somewhere else - for a Knox Box?

I understand some jurisdictions amend code to require a specific key box - and I'm sure a specific "Knox Box" brand isn't written into code - but just a requirement that triggers the fire department key box to begin with.

I've always asked the jurisdictions whether they wanted one, and they usually do, but I've never found a requirement that I probably should know about by now.

Also, I've had this missed on many a job in a scope gap between subcontractors and the general contractor. What division would supply and install these? 

As a consultant I usually get a bunch of pointed fingers elsewhere anytime I ask who is planning on providing it.

Thanks in advance, appreciate the variety of perspectives here.

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We are installing an elevator (freight) at an advanced water treatment plant. The doors open at two locations:

1. the basement of the facility where pumps and piping are located, and
   
2. to the building exterior with only a small canopy/awning protecting the entrance.
   
   

A smoke detector is located near the elevator in the basement; however, is a smoke detector required under this canopy/awning?

Thanks in advance.

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What are the required system components for a Fire Alarm System versus a Fire Sprinkler Monitoring System?

I've ran into a debate on this in multiple jurisdictions. I know a fire alarm system has occupant notification and initiating devices, such as the smoke detectors, pull stations, waterflow, etc., whereas sprinkler monitoring is just waterflow notification.

But, is occupant notification required for a Sprinkler Monitoring System?

Furthermore, do horn/strobes need to have a secondary power supply, like Fire Alarm System components do?

Is a smoke detector required above the panel/radio/dialer? 

I know it depends on the local AHJ, but I'm looking for some guidance here... I am the local AHJ.

Thanks for your input!

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For domestic (US) military work, we're generally required to comply with the Buy American Act. 

However, our fire alarm manufacturer's batteries (every listed brand) is sourced internationally. 

Is there some waiver to this requirement for specifically-sourced pieces of equipment? 

Or is there some third-party battery manufacturer that's accepted outside the listing?

I'm wondering how others deal with the Buy American requirements when it doesn't appear we have any options. Thanks in advance.

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I'm in Code Enforcement in New York. I've never been completely comfortable as to where strobes are required in "common use and public use" areas.

I'm not talking about the obvious locations such as open areas, corridors , restrooms, conference rooms, etc. I'm talking smaller enclosed rooms such as offices, pantries, copy rooms, file rooms etc.

The definition of "Common Use" in the New York State Building Code is "Interior or exterior circulation paths, rooms, spaces or elements that are not for public use and are made available for the shared use of two or more people".

With respect to rooms, does "shared use of two or more people" relate to stations, desks, cubicles, etc, where people normally sit and/or work?

Or does it mean any space where at least two people can be in the room at the same time for any duration?

Another example is a doctor's office that has exam rooms that is classified as a Group B occupancy. The patient and medical professional can be in the room, or the patient can be alone for a period of time.

Should we consider exam rooms as public space?

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We are designing a new/upgraded fire alarm system for a remodeled highrise (our local codes are 2012 IBC and 2018 NFPA 1) and there is a detached walk-in cooler for the restaurant, located relatively close to the main building (~3' away from the nearest exterior wall).

We received an RFI asking whether fire alarm devices are required in the coolers - good question(!). I'm not able to find anything specific for fire alarm devices in detached storage buildings.

Do you see fire alarm required for the detached cooler?

If anyone has any insight (or NFPA references that I've overlooked), it would be very much appreciated!

Thanks for a great community!

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From Joe - first - thank you for being a part of this community. This forum really has turned into something outstanding, and far better than I could have hoped for when we brought it to life a few years ago. You may be surprised to know just how popular this is now with over 4,000 daily email subscribers. Keep up the great work, and thanks for being part of it!

Today I'd like to open up a discussion and ask for some feedback on a draft we created for design of Fire Alarm for Elevators.

A lot has changed in this space. I first put this draft version together a year ago, and now with the 2022 Edition of NFPA 72 out (among other code updates). 

Well, now a year later, it's time I kick this into gear and get a formalized version together. Before I wrap this up and get through my own updates, I'd like to extend an invite; if you're a fire alarm junkie and you hear intelligibility whale noises in your nightmares, please take a look and let me know what feedback I might be able to incorporate. 

We're all in this together and we're certainly trying to get things spot-on, so as always I appreciate and welcome the input. Feel free to post below, or if you'd rather just let me know directly, at joe@meyerfire.com.

​Thanks so much for being a part of what we're doing here!

​- Joe Meyer

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We have a military project in the US, so the project is mandated to be compliant with UFC criteria.

We are required to locate an LOC (Local Operating Console) within 200-ft of all portions of a building.

Is exiting the building, and re-entering, to access an LOC permissible? 

If we have exterior-only mechanical rooms, electrical rooms, or maintenance bays (which each only access the outside), then at what point would an LOC be required in each of these spaces?

I'm not trying to be facetious or dramatic, just looking for outside opinion on working through a gray area in my mind.

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Is there a code or standard that specifies floor clearance in front of a fire pump controller cabinet?

I am installing a fire pump in an existing building which has a controller with a transfer switch. Of course the fire pump room size presents clearance issues.

I have clearances I need for sprinkler pipe, but I do not know the working clearances required in front of the cabinets. 

I do have door swing clearance, but was wondering about a working clearance. Thanks in advance.

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