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Hi, all! I came across this forum by accident at the perfect time. I am having a dilemma with the building department.
I am conducting an annual flow test on a 500 gpm (at 100 psi) fire pump from the test header off the pump discharge with the valve closed as to not disturb the system. I achieved 100% and 150% with no issues and the curve was almost identical to the pump's design curve. The Department of Buildings is rejecting the test because the test was conducted from the discharge manifold. I was trying to avoid flowing from the roof because it's a very high end building and did not want to risk anything. Now, this system has been recently installed and the jockey pump panel is reading 100 psi on the system. When I tested my pump, it pushed out 168 psi on discharge and 48 psi on suction for a net of 120 psi (the pump is rated at 124 PSI for churn). I can conduct the test from the roof with no issue as long as the building feels comfortable with their storm drain's ability to handle the flow, but I am worried about over-pressurizing the system. Am I permitted by code to test off the header and not from the roof? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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I have a question with regards to the ESFR dry pendent 'box-in-a-box' freezer installation.
How do you handle the large ceiling-hung condensing units that are present in basically every large cold storage freezer/cooler? Do you provide some kind of a supplemental system below the units? I see that the new antifreeze solutions are listed for storage occupancies, but specifically exclude ESFR systems. We have a large cold storage freezer where the mechanical consultant has specified ESFR dry pendents, but provided no direction on how to address the condensing units. I'm sure I'm not the first to run into this issue, and I am curious how others have dealt with it. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What factors do you consider when deciding whether to specify brass or chrome valves, fittings, FDCs, sprinklers, etc?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I'm looking at requirements for hose valves (FHV) at exit passageways and I'm a little confused.
The code states that a hose connection is required: "in every exit passageway at the entrance from the exit passageway to the other areas of a building. Exception: Where floor areas adjacent to an exit passageway are reachable from exit stairway hose connections by a 30-foot (9144 mm) hose stream from a nozzle attached to 100 feet (30 480 mm) of hose, a hose connection shall not be required at the entrance from the exit passageway to other areas of the building." What is the rationale behind locating a hose valve at the entry of the exit passageway? Is this for fighting fires outside? I have been told it is so that the fire department can quickly locate the hose valve, but I can't imagine they would want to run their hose 130-feet in the passageway just to then have another connection in the stairwell. My passageway is about 100-feet long and it connects to a stairwell that does have a fire hose valve located at the main landing. Why would I need a fire hose valve at the entry of the exit passageway also, which is 100-ft away? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a fire hydrant in a planter curb, and we will have some trash enclosures nearby.
What is the required minimum clearance for a trash enclosure wall from the hydrant itself? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a project with 90 apartments, and each unit has a recessed telecom (fiber-optic) panel in a closet that would normally not require a sprinkler. The project is under NFPA 13R.
The Authority Having Jurisdiction is requesting sprinklers in these closets, feeling that these are now combustible after the telecom panel is installed. Is anyone else running into this? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project with a comment from the AHJ stating that the dryer vent cannot terminate to the exterior condominium wall, which is the egress wall for the condominium exit exterior breezeway on that floor.
We're under NFPA 101 (regarding Section 30-3.6.3 for Unprotected Openings). Is a duct penetration considered an unprotected opening? Dry vents cannot have fire/smoke dampers, so can it just be a metal duct? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a project that is under NFPA 13R (2019) and NFPA 14 (2019). In section 7.10.1.3.1.1 of NFPA 14, it states that in cases where NFPA 13R system demand is higher than the standpipe demand, the system demand applies.
Is it ever possible to have a residential sprinkler system with a higher demand than a standpipe? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project with a limited water supply that makes it impossible to automatically replace the required fire water in 8-hours.
Could a larger (1.5 x the required fire flow) water storage tank be an option? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are sprinklers required beneath a McDonald's play structure?
On past projects I have designed roof-level sprinkler protection for the play area additions, but we are becoming involved in a government project where there is ceiling level protection and they are requiring protection beneath what are apparently several areas of the play structure that are greater than 4-feet in width. I guess I can't argue that it is not "fixed-in-place." I'm sure most of these planes are higher than 24-inches above the ground, so that exception doesn't apply. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are ESFR heads provided below obstructions required to be calculated in addition to, in lieu of, or ignored when compared against the 12 (three rows of four sprinklers) included in the hydraulic calculations?
I haven't designed an ESFR system in ten years and it looks like the new verbiage seems to suggest that sprinklers below obstructions are not included in the calculations. Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I live in a 28-unit condominium with a dry system that we agreed to have the valve & compressor replaced in September 2020. The previous system's air compressor ran 2 times every 24 hrs for 16 mins. The new air compressor ran every 4 minutes for 8 seconds & was very loud in an enclosed room. This new air compressor quit after 90 days & breaking at 2 separate times on the copper lines.
How can we cut down the noise and make repairs? As of today (March 2021), we have had a Cobalt compressor running in place of the general compressor that quit. The Cobalt runs every 70 minutes for 2.5 minutes. We are constantly told by contractor we have a leak somewhere that needs to be addressed, that we don’t doubt. We have cut the air off for a leak check, 2.5 hrs 2 lbs down. I know this lengthy but I need some advice how to cut down noise and repairs. Thanks for any help. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe The International Fire Code (IFC) Section 6004 for highly toxic and toxic gases states the following for exhausted enclosures:
6004.1.3(1) The average ventilation velocity at the face of the enclosure shall not be less than 200 feet per minute with not less than 150 feet per minute. However, in the same section for gas cabinets (Section 6004.1.2(1)), the words "at any point of the access port or window" are added after "150 feet per minute." Doe anyone know if this was an oversight by the authors of this section? Did they miss a few words in the requirement for exhausted enclosures? I don't understand why the 150 feet per minute would be for gas cabinets but not exhausted enclosures (albeit without referencing where the 150 feet per minute measurement is to be taken). This issue is coming up at my work as we have several exhausted enclosures and gas cabinets and some of the exhausted enclosures have ports/windows which are sealed shut. Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a skylight that is 4-ft (length) x 6-ft (width) x 5-ft (depth). The room has a drywall ceiling and the depth of the pocket is about 4-ft of dry wall between the ceiling with an additional 1'-0" of glass (for the skylight) that domes above the roof at the top of the pocket.
Can I omit a sprinkler in the skylight per NFPA 13 2016 Section 8.5.7, or do I need a sprinkler in the skylight under Section 8.6.7 due to the depth of the unprotected ceiling pocket exceeding 36-inches? NFPA 13, 2016 Section 8.5.7 (Skylights) permits sprinklers to be omitted from skylights not exceeding 32ft² that are separated by at least 10ft horizontally from any other unprotected skylight or unprotected ceiling pocket. NFPA 13, 2016 Section 8.6.7 (Ceiling Pockets) says sprinklers shall not be required in ceiling pockets where all of the following are met: (1) The total volume of unprotected ceiling pocket does not exceed 1000ft³.(2) The depth of the unprotected ceiling pocket does not exceed 36 in. (3) The entire floor under the unprotected ceiling pocket is protected by sprinklers at the lower ceiling elevation. (4) the total size of all unprotected ceiling pockets in the same compartment with in 10ft of each other does not exceed 1000ft³. (5) The unprotected ceiling pocket has noncombustible or limited-combustible finishes. (6) Quick-response sprinklers are utilized throughout the compartment. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a paper plant that has storage of rolled tissue paper stored up to 16-feet. While researching the protection requirements in NFPA 13 I discovered this commodity class at these heights can be protected by CMDA designs, but not CMSA or ESFR. I have been unable to find why CMSA and ESFR isn't allowed in NFPA 13 (handbook and other resources).
Do you have any idea why CMSA and ESFR wouldn't be permitted for this hazard? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Editor's Note from Joe: Sorry for the swing and the miss yesterday everyone! Didn't get the post up, so we're putting up two questions today. Hope you have a great rest of your week!
We're under the International Fire Code, Section 903.2.11.5. This section allows fire sprinklers to be installed in commercial hood/duct systems.
Is this intended to be in the ductwork only, or also protecting the cooking equipment? I've never seen this before, but it seems to go against everything we're taught about cooking and grease fires (don't put water on them)! Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project where the contractor tied in a new 4-inch standpipe into the existing 6-inch sprinkler main riser. Now it becomes a combination standpipe/fire sprinkler riser.
My question is - does the contractor still need to install riser isolation valves on every floor? Per NFPA 13 8.17.5.2.2* the following restrictions shall apply: (3) Each combined sprinkler and standpipe riser shall be equipped with a riser control valve to permit isolating a riser without interrupting the supply to other risers from the same source of supply. (For fire department connections serving standpipe and sprinkler systems, refer to Section 6.8). As of now the sprinkler main riser is not a part of their scope. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can you help explain two entries in NFPA 13-2019 Table A.20.4(b) for "Empty Containers" on page 418?
Rigid plastic (not including PET) up to 32-oz. (1L) is non-expanded. Rigid plastic (not including PET) greater than 32-oz. (1L) is expanded. What are they referring to? Is this a one-gallon PE bucket? A 64-oz. detergent bottle? Milk crates? I guess my question is - what is a rigid plastic container? There's a huge difference if it needs to be treated as an Exposed Expanded Group A plastic versus Non-Expanded. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a Type II-B construction mostly light-hazard building with drop ceilings throughout. The plenum is not sprinkler protected. Walls go to either the ceiling or roof deck, depending upon the use of the space (ie: conference rooms have full-height walls for acoustics).
There is a closet which does not have a ceiling, and its' walls do not go to deck. Does this opening invalidate the elimination of sprinklers in the plenum from NFPA 13 (2013/2016) Section 8.15.1.2.2 for non-combustible and limited-combustible spaces? Would posting signage saying no combustible storage is permitted in lieu of extending the walls work instead of installing a ceiling? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is there a recommended maximum distance between the Fire Department Connection (FDC) and check valve?
NFPA 13 does not include a required maximum distance between the check valve and the FDC. I understand the intent is to reduce the length of non-pressurized pipe. My project includes a warehouse with a free-standing FDC located about 125-feet from the building. Is it best to locate the check valve indoors, where it can be easily inspected and maintained, or, located underground, closer to the FDC where it would be buried? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Our fire water demand capacity is 60,000 gallons, but our current water tank storage capacity is 30,000 gallons. We don't have any space near our current fire water storage tank.
Is it possible to make another (second) tank with a capacity of 30,000 gallons and connect it to the old tank through pipe? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is a pumper truck from the fire department required to do standpipe flow testing?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A special thank you to the top contributors for this past month!
Can the ceiling pocked omission rules outlined in NFPA 13 for standard spray pendents and uprights be applied to standard spray sidewalls?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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