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Is there an NFPA 13 or 14 restriction for a combined sprinkler - standpipe dry system?
This is an open parking structure. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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I am working on a project that is building and connecting an open parking ramp to an existing building via an open bridge. The open garage will be going next to an existing building (different from the one it will be connecting to).
Does the open parking ramp need a dry standpipe? It will be just over 69 feet tall, and it doesn't look like there are elevators within the enclosed stairwells from the architect's rendering. I don't have a CAD background to compare to yet. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In a 3-story building with 3 standpipes, one of which is a combination standpipe/riser, and the standpipes are manual wet, with 50 psi.
On a 5-year test, how do I flow 1000 gpm (no pump) at 100 psi? Do I involve the fire department? The old hydraulic plates showed 70-50 at 260 flow. Three years later, they are showing 50-40 at 320 flow. So I cannot pass this, even though the water supply has diminished. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe For scissor stairs having 2 separate standpipe risers (one of them is a combined sprinkler and standpipe system) running 12 floors, how do we size the pump flow rate required?
Can we argue that we can use a 500GPM pump since the Risers are in close proximity to each other and are within one stairwell, or should we use a 750GPM pump following the NFPA 14 sizing of 500GPM plus 250 GPM per additional riser? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a hotel building that requires a standpipe in each of the two staircases. One of the stair shafts has a door to the outside at grade level, but there is no door to the first level inside. The lowest level with an interior door is the second floor, which has its own hose connection.
It doesn't make sense to provide a hose connection at the ground floor, but is there a code basis to support this? Thanks! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Standpipe hydraulic placards - are they required? You don’t see too many of them, so it would be difficult to find out how much psi max to pump in I don’t see many at the FDCs. Some fire marshals ask for one, others do not. I feel I’m the only one providing them. NFPA 14 6.8 requires them and tells you what to put on them (2016 to present). I place them at the exterior FDCs, base of standpipes, at the tested valves, and at the fire pump. Why aren’t the signs enforced? Are you seeing these regularly? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe  In sub-grade parking garages, with PRV fire hose valves/floor controls - for testing purposes, would you connect a PRV fire hose valve to the express drain via hose and pump vertically to get to the exterior grade to discharge? Are there any issues with this method during testing to consider? PRV floor control would be hard piped to the express drain and utilize the same pathway to the exterior. Then at the bottom of the express drain has a ball valve, acting as an auxiliary drain only. It can discharge to a gravity drain system, whether storm or sanitary, whatever your local AHJ permits. Or is everyone trying to discharge into a gravity drain at the bottom of the stairs and hoping to not flood anything? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe  Have 5 stories of parking with about 15 levels of residential floors above. For an enclosed, heated/conditioned garage we can use a wet system.
If we're using Extra Hazard Group 2 with high temp sprinklers or 11.2k sprinklers, which reduces our design area we know we need to account for "0.40 gpm/sqft x 2,000 sq.ft. = 800 gpm demand" at least. A PRV floor control valve like a 2-1/2" Zurn ZW5004 tops out at 500 gpm per the data sheet. Would it be possible to utilize two of these floor controls from different stairs and have an interconnected system on those levels? Or would it be better to utilize to try and separate the garage level sprinkler system from the standpipe for those levels and use a master pressure reducing valve station on ground level to feed the 5 garage levels? Would a redundant pressure reducing valve at a master pressure reducing valve station be necessary if the sprinkler feed is separated from the standpipe feed for those levels? Or could I just use a grooved 6" pilot-operated PRV like a Cla-Val 90G-21 (listed for 1763 gpm) before a floor control on garage levels? (a combined sprinkler/standpipe configuration) Lots to this, appreciate the feedback in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe TL;DR:
How can surge/water hammer forces be managed in very tall high-rise fire protection system using a single high-pressure pump (~365 psi) without exceeding equipment ratings or NFPA limits? Question: Trying to pre-plan in my mind for some upcoming pretty tall highrises where design teams would like to utilize 1 pump in lieu of a high/low multi-pump set up. I'm coming up with a couple of challenges. For the sake of the problem lets assume the static pressure at the fire pump discharge flange is 365 psi. I'm concerned that fire pump starting methods might create shockwaves/water hammer in high-pressure standpipes whether it be at the start of the pump like across-the-line or end of the curve spike like a wye-delta closed might see. How concerning is creating surge forces that exceed coupling/PRV valve/Pressure Relief Valve listed ratings? First reaction for many like me has always been to utilize soft-start but electrically with generators soft-start has a much higher load that has to be accounted for in the generator sizing because of the electrical engineers have to size them as across-the-line because of the bypass & 600% FLA. Maybe they just have to suffer on their design for FPs to be what it needs to be, but am trying to be accommodating where it makes sense. Is the general method to rely on a main relief valve in these high-pressure systems? NFPA 14 limits us to 400 psi but I'm not finding pressure relief valves that are listed high enough for the static pressure of the system i.e. cal-val at 300 psi, Victaulic at 350 psi. Is anyone utilizing anything like an Amtrol Surge-Trol Tank type products? Maybe VFD controllers to flatten/lower the static pressure? Some additional concerns in my mind are PRV hose valves have a 400 psi rated value and some couplings for example Victaulic might be rated at 365 psi. I know there are higher rated couplings on the market, like 500 psi, but if my static pressure on the system is 365 psi, I could see a surge force exceeding the rated values (zero math to support that claim). I'm struggling to quantify the possible surge force values in the design phase and how to handle that. Reading SFPE Handbook of Fire Protection Engineering 5th edition Water Hammer section pg 1407, it's focused mostly on the closing of valves, and still wrapping my head around if those equations can be applicable/same for pump starting forces. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a horizontal standpipe Class 1 in a 157,252 sqft warehouse that needs calc'd, but I'm trying to figure out how to go about that.
Per NFPA 14, 2016 edition, it seems to me that you would have the hydraulically most demanding hose valve flow 250-gpm @ 100-psi, and then flow three (3) more hose valves at 250-gpm until I get to a 1000-gpm total. However, Section 7.10.1.2.2 only says to do this up to 3 hose valves total. What am I doing wrong? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Looking for clarification on NFPA 101 Section 30.2.5.1.2, which provides an exemption for exit staircase remoteness. NFPA 14, however, requires a standpipe system in all exit staircases. We are working on an 18-floor high-rise apartment building that has two exit staircases eligible for the remoteness exemption outlined in 30.2.5.1.2. I would like to install a standpipe riser in the exit access corridor leading to exit staircases instead of within the exit staircase, as NFPA 14 specifies. Is locating the hose valves in the corridor in-between allowed rather than within the exit enclosure?  We're installing a manual dry standpipe system that will have 12 psi of supervisory air. This is my first supervised dry standpipe in [redacted by original author to protect author's extreme age] years in the industry.
The FDC has 3 brass clappered snoots supplying a 6" main. I'm assuming we'll need to install a 6" rubber-faced check valve near the FDC to hold the air. However, you know what they say about 'assuming'. Therefore, I'll ask the FP Pro world: Is there any chance those brass clappers will hold 12psi of air? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A fire pump supplies a combination riser for sprinklers/standpipes.
Between the combination riser and the fire pump, there are 2 pressure-reducing CLA VA in series. It appears that 2024 NFPA 14 10.2.5 requires a bypass assembly for these 2 CLA VA. Is there any reason or justification to delete this bypass around the CLA VA assembly? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a new build design where standpipes are required due to height. An area of the building is lower than the height requirement. This area has a partial floor above another that looks over an open emergency planning room area. There are two open stairs at either end. They appear to be the only stairs.
I view these as required interior exit stairs, and since I have never found an exemption to areas of the building below the height requiring standpipes, I've included hose connections. The Architect wants them removed because they are open stairs. Are standpipes allowed to be omitted for open stairs in the portions below the required heights for a standpipe? Any thoughts or input are appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Valve Cabinet Clearance Is there any code which requires a minimum clearance for a valve cabinet. I typically say 36” or 1m (in Canada) as that is the typical clearance required in front of equipment. But I have been asked if there is any supporting reference for this specifically and I can’t find one for hose cabinets.
Just hose valves in a cabinet or where they are not to obstruct egress. Looking to see what others use and if they have any code reference. Along a similar thought - does anyone know if equipment access clearances can overlap, or do they need to be independent of each other? Can clearances overlap? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe NFPA 14 states that "hydraulically designed standpipe systems shall be designed to provide the waterflow rate required by Section 7.10 at a minimum residual pressure of 100 psi at the hydraulically most remote 2½" hose connection and 65 psi at the outlet of the hydraulically most remote 1½" hose connection" (Section 7.8.1, 2019 edition).
So does this mean if you have a single 2½" hose valve on your project, you need 100 psi residual at that valve? This seems pretty cut and dry, but I've been thinking about this, and off the top of my head, I can list at least 5 projects that had 2½" hose valves and less than 100 psi of static pressure on the ground floor, let alone 100 psi residual on the 4th floor. Not only projects that I have personally witnessed get signed off, but also buildings I have found myself walking through that have had gauges on the hose valves, and those gauges more often than not (in my area at least) read a pressure less than 100 psi static. Are these just all designed wrong? Or am I missing something? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am designing a wet pipe fire sprinkler system in a one story Group B occupancy (16-ft high). The building is about 90,000 sqft in area. The building will be fully sprinklered with two zone control valve assemblies.
The fire department is asking to add fire hose valve cabinets as the interior remote areas of the building are more than 130 feet from an exterior door, only citing that its required by IBC 2021. Is this correct? I can't find this requirement. Any help is appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What specific criteria or code references determine whether a standpipe system is classified as 'separated' rather than 'combined'?
I've seen AHJs state that even though the sprinkler system and the standpipe have separate vertical riser assemblies (control valve, check valve, and supervision), they are fed from the same underground supply (one underground service main) and will still be considered combined. We are working on a project where the AHJ has deemed the building 'partially sprinklered,' requiring the standpipe to be upgraded from 4" to 6" (which would necessitate a pump) but only if it is a combined system. We are looking for clarification or language that supports the distinction between a combined and a separated standpipe system to explore options that may avoid the need for a pump. Additionally, does anyone have thoughts on how we might be able to keep the standpipe at 4" or explore alternative approaches to avoid the pump requirement? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In NFPA 14, Sections 7.12.2.2(2) (2019) or 10.7.2.2(2) (2024) state that a "minimum of two FDCs shall be provided for each zone for the following: (1)* High-rise buildings (2) Buildings or multiple attached buildings exceeding 900 ft (274.3 m) perimeter distance." Neither edition defines "perimeter". Is it measured where the building meets grade? Should it account for all exterior walls? Two building which share similar "A" length and "B" width dimensions can produce vastly different "perimeters" depending how they're measured. (See image below.)  Thanks in advance.
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Operationally, why would a fire department with a 1,500 gpm pump on a fire engine connect to a building FDC that has a 1,750 gpm pump?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What is involved in a 5 year inspection/test for a manual wet standpipe?
I see in NFPA 25, 2017 edition that manual wet standpipes are not required to be flow tested or hydrotested when part of the sprinkler system. So my question again is are there any specific requirements for 5 year testing for manual wet standpipes? Thank you all! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How would you recommend determining when PRV hose valves should be used in a highrise?
I am designing a 12-story hotel. The highest outlet is at 125'-5". Our flow test is mid-50's static and residual at 1,500 gpm. I did the standpipe calculation using a combined source of the city and fire pump. I sized the pump to what the demand was at 750gpm @ 174.26 psi. In turn I put in a 750gpm @ 125psi fire pump and had a 6.45lb buffer. Do I then do another calculation to find out the maximum static pressure available on the supply side at each level and minus out the elevation loss? Can anyone give me a guide on how to find out which level needs a PRV FHV and which doesn't? Thank you in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We're designing a small footprint high rise with 2 stairs/standpipes, and 3" drains in the stairs for floor control valve drains and testing/verifying hose valves.
Primary water is supplied from a vertical turbine pump and tank. Local codes don’t allow direct outdoor drains so it’s either into the tank or into large hub drains. Owner is very ‘green’ and looking for ways to reduce water usage. We’ve already got the fire pump test flows back into the tank. We’re considering flowing the stair’s drains into a hub with a bypass into the tank -- hub for system draining, tank for PRV and flow switch testing. Is it advisable or preferable to run these stair drains back into the tank? Concerns include flowing black, stinky water into the tank and possibly adding pipe scale into the tank Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Where is the code section that states the numbers (calcs) on the supply side shall be greater than the numbers at the base of riser (system side)?
Does the code address this with a code section? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a multistory building with horizontal exits which require additional hose valves on each side of the door.
International Fire Code Section 905.4.1 addresses the protection of the standpipes, stating it must be equivalent to the rating required for the vertical enclosures of the building (e.g. egress stair) and the exception relieves the requirement for shaft protection of the laterals (e.g. interconnection). However, there is no relief for protection of the vertical standpipes supplying the additional hose valves. In the past, I have typically seen the additional vertical standpipe risers in the corridor wall separating the corridor from the units (1 hour) and fire stopped at the floor penetrations. However, according to this code section a 2-hour shaft is required. Is there some relief of the 2-hour shaft requirement for additional standpipes outside of the stair enclosure? If so, can you please guide me to the code reference? If the shaft enclosure is required, would it also apply to the 2-1/2" feed serving the valve on the opposite side of the horizontal exit door? I appreciate the insight. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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