NFPA-14 2019 Edition. There is a new section in NFPA 14 - Section 7.8.1.2.1:

The pressure required at the fire department connection for manual standpipes shall not exceed the working pressure of the system components of the standpipe system or sprinkler system when the system is a combined system.

Does anyone have any idea why this was added?

It seems to me that the maximum pressure at the FDC would be 175psi as this is what the sprinklers are rated.

Pumping at that pressure I would never get the 100psi required at the top of the most remote riser.

Or am I interpreting this section incorrectly?

Thanks in advance.

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Hi All, Is there a code reference on the maximum amount of time allowed to close a wall PIV (or any valve for that matter)?

I have a Wall PIV that is hard and slow to turn, and takes about 30 minutes of fighting to fully close. Servicing of accessible components has not helped.

I probably won't be able to get funds to repair/replace unless I can quote a code violation.

I have only found a minimum amount of time, but nothing for a maximum. Thanks in advance!

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Is there support in the standard to require a control valve supplying a combination sprinkler/standpipe system (standpipe isolation valve) so that a ladder wouldn't be needed to close the valve?

All control valves are to be accessible, but not necessarily readily accessible.

I like to require that they not be installed more than 7-ft, but am looking for code guidance here. 

Is there code justification for 7-ft valve requirement?

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I am reviewing a set of fire suppression drawings from another engineer that is working as a sub to the sprinkler contractor. We created an outline of the fire suppression requirements (a performance spec) and then the contractor hired another engineer to finish the design.

The building is a 6-story wood frame residential project.

There are two exit stairs each with a Class I Standpipe and 2.5-inch fire hose connection (FHC).

The building is an 'L' shape and the total travel distance from one FHC to the other is approximately 300-ft (91m).

There is a 2-hour fire-resistance-rated wall part way along the corridor (124-ft from one FHC, 174-ft from the other).

The contractor's engineer is calling for an additional third standpipe next to the 2-hour rated wall - is this required or not?

I'm not sure how to interpret Sections 7.3.2.3 and 7.3.2.3.1 of NFPA-14. The project is in BC, Canada; and we're using NFPA-14 (2013 Edition). I have attached a markup of a typical floor plan.

Thanks in advance!

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We're designing a Wet Manual Class I standpipe in a low-rise building with 4 stairs/standpipes and therefore 4 isolation valves. There are 7 total levels of this building.

The horizontal supply pipe must be located in the level 5 ceiling.

​Is it allowable to locate the standpipe isolation valves at this 5th level versus the more typical location near the bottom of each standpipe?

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According to the International Building Code Section 905.3 (2018 Edition), a standpipe is required in any building with four or more stories.

We have a small building (three family homes) but the first floor is all a parking garage, and then 3 more floors over the parking garage (one home per floor).

According to the IBC, do we still need a standpipe even if it's such a small building?

If we do need a standpipe, does the service have to be 4-inches or can we have it at 2-inches and increase the riser up to 4-inches to feed the manual wet standpipe?

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We have a series of highrise buildings where an NFPA 13 sprinkler system and a wet standpipe system (NFPA 14) are to be installed.

If the sprinkler and the standpipe systems are supplied by a common fire pump, and horizontal supply pipe, but have separate vertical risers, will the system be considered a combined system?

Will the subsection of NFPA 14 (2019 Edition) section 7.10.1.3.1.1 apply?

7.10.1.3.1.1 In a building protected in accordance with NFPA 13 or NFPA 13R, the water supply for the combined sprinkler and automatic standpipe system shall be based on the sprinkler system demand (including any hose stream demand) or the standpipe demand, whichever is greater.

The buildings are fully-sprinklered, and the proposed fire pump is rated at 1,000 gpm. There is a water storage tank of 30,000 gallons. Thanks in advance.

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I have a hospital that has two "double hose valves" at the top of two different standpipes on the roof. One is on a helipad and the other is below on a different roof. Both are the most remote locations.

Per NFPA 25, for the 5-year test, I'm supposed to flow 500 gpm at the most remote then an additional 250 gpm at a different standpipe until I reach 1,000 gpm for the fully-sprinklered building.

Can I just flow 500 gpm out of both double-hose valves (2 standpipes), or do I have to flow 500 gpm, then 250 gpm, then 250 gpm using three different standpipes?

Thanks.

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Do any of your projects with dry manual standpipes hold supervisory air?

I understand NFPA 14 Section 6.1.1 to have a requirement for supervision of the standpipe system:

6.1.1 Location of Dry Standpipes.
Dry standpipes shall be monitored in accordance with NFPA 72 with supervisory air pressure.

Are all dry manual standpipe systems provided with supervisory air? Or is this section meant to pertain only to automatic or semi-automatic dry systems?

I don't think holding supervisory air under pressure in a dry manual standpipe is feasible, being that there would be multiple points of leakage: www.aspe.org/pipeline/is-supervisory-air-monitoring-feasible-for-manual-dry-standpipes/

Just wondering if I'm completely missing the boat here, or if there's something about this portion of NFPA 14 that I'm misinterpreting. Thanks in advance.

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In Class I standpipes, I commonly see a pair of hose valves installed at the top landing (or intermediate landing) - One immediately below the other.

Is this an incorrect derivative of the requirement to calculate the two most remote outlets (at 500 gpm), or something that was required in a previous edition of NFPA #14, or is this merely a regional practice that is a result of the shared DNA of my regional contractors?

I thought I had seen an informal interpretation regarding this, but I cannot find it again. NFPA Figures do not appear to support this double-valve arrangement.

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We have been asked to supply FDC signage for an existing building with combined sprinkler/standpipe system.

The AHJ has requested that both minimum and maximum operating pressure be included on the sign.

Can we use existing hydraulic data information or should it be recalculated including friction loss from the fire hose to pumper truck?

Also, what would constitute the maximum pressure in a combined sprinkler / Class III system?

Would it be max 175 psi at all 2-1/2” hose connections if there are pressure regulations devices on the 1-1/2” hose valves?

Thanks in advance in helping us sort this out.

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During a recent life safety walk through of a popular boat show, I observed the installation of a temporary Class I wet standpipe system to supply various hose valves along the docks.

I noticed the 4-inch Silver-Line Schedule 40 PVC pipe was being supported randomly. I recorded distances ranging from 9 to 15 feet. I consulted with NFPA 14 then 13.

NFPA 13, Table 17.4.2.1 shows "NA" for 4 inch CPVC pipe. In viewing the cut sheets for the listed pipe, the support spacing is 7.7 feet at 73 degrees F.

My question is, is my methodology correct on how I went about getting the correct spacing in order to advise the the contractor?

Please advise. Thank you.

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Does the requirement in NFPA 13 that “All valves controlling water supplies for sprinkler systems or portions thereof, including floor control valves, should be accessible to authorized persons during emergencies. Permanent ladders, clamped treads on risers, chain-operated hand wheels, or other accepted means should be provided where necessary” imply there is a maximum height limit for floor control valves or standpipe isolation valves?

I have a couple standpipe projects where I am having trouble squeezing in a standpipe isolation valve down low (in elevation). I haven't found a confirmation in the standard or handbook that identifies a maximum height for accessibility.

Thanks in advance.

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I have a project which includes two 6-level buildings (a parking garage and a residential structure).

The garage is reinforced concrete and cold. The residential portion right next to it (8 inches away) is mostly wood construction and warm. The project has a seismic design category of B - so no earthquake bracing throughout. Because the garage is cold, I have the dry control valve on a combination standpipe in a warm closet in the residential portion. The 3" feed then travels across the 8" gap to the garage. This happens at all 6 levels.

My question is, do I need a seismic separation assembly on one side or the other at each of the levels where the dry feed travels across the gap?

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When doing a flow test for a 5-year on an automatic wet standpipe system in a building which has had significant additions over the years, which design pressure applies?

The original 8-story building and pump are from the early 1980's and was required to have a minimum residual 65-psi at the roof, flowing 750 gpm.

Fast forward to the most recent building attachment to the existing fire pump, and the code now requires a minimum of 100-psi at 750 gpm at the roof. 

Would these additions be considered separate zones and therefore be tested individually at their specific design requirement, or would they all be tested at the original design requirements?

The building is a healthcare facility and is inspected to NFPA 25-2011 per the Joint Commission requirements.

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Does anyone know of a fire department connection manufacturer that produces a fire department connection rated for higher than 300 psi?

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I have a building being renovated into a (A-2) restaurant for a total of three floors with a basement level. All levels are classified an A-2 occupancy. The building is going to be sprinklered and have a fire alarm system.

Now that the project is about 75% to completion, the owner has resubmitted plans to have the roof top used as a A-2 also with an occupant load of about 30 people. The ground floor to the roof is 29-ft.

The building is not over 30-ft to require a standpipes, but can it be required now due to the rooftop being used as a occupied floor?

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Can someone tell about how often are Fire Department Connections ever used in a real fire?

We all install FDCs but in the real world how much do Fire Departments use them?

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NFPA 20 5.6.2 requires a fully-independent and automatic back up pump for very tall buildings. This project is just under 50 stories with a pump and back up several levels below grade serving the lower zones and another pump and back up several levels above grade serving the remaining zones.

The project’s electrician cannot meet the power requirements for the worst case scenario, which would be all (4) pumps operating at once (if the primaries are running, but not at full capacity).

The request is to interlock the primary and back up on the respective level, so only one pump is running on the level at a time (for a max total of two pumps running in the whole building).

Would interlocking the pumps on their respective levels still satisfy the requirements of NFPA 20 5.6.2 (copied below)?

NFPA 20 5.6.2 Fire Pump Backup. Fire pumps serving zones that are partially or wholly beyond the pumping capability of the fire department apparatus shall be provided with one of the following:

1. A fully independent and automatic backup fire pump unit(s) arranged so that all zones can be maintained in full service with any one pump out of service.
2. An auxiliary means that is capable of providing the full fire protection demand and that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.
   

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I always seem to miss listing a pressure gauge on a project. Are any required above what I have in my checklist below?

Sprinkler:

• At each "system riser"
• Before & after backflow preventer
• Before & after any dry or pre-action valve, accelerator, air supply
• At each main drain
• Each side of a pressure reducing or regulating device

Standpipe

• Top of standpipes

Pumps

• Suction
• Discharge

Moderator note: thanks in advance for feedback, we're developing a cheatsheet on this topic in the near future

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Hi, all! I came across this forum by accident at the perfect time. I am having a dilemma with the building department.

I am conducting an annual flow test on a 500 gpm (at 100 psi) fire pump from the test header off the pump discharge with the valve closed as to not disturb the system. I achieved 100% and 150% with no issues and the curve was almost identical to the pump's design curve.

The Department of Buildings is rejecting the test because the test was conducted from the discharge manifold. I was trying to avoid flowing from the roof because it's a very high end building and did not want to risk anything. Now, this system has been recently installed and the jockey pump panel is reading 100 psi on the system.

When I tested my pump, it pushed out 168 psi  on discharge and 48 psi on suction for a net of 120 psi (the pump is rated at 124 PSI for churn). I can conduct the test from the roof with no issue as long as the building feels comfortable with their storm drain's ability to handle the flow, but I am worried about over-pressurizing the system. 

Am I permitted by code to test off the header and not from the roof? 

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I'm looking at requirements for hose valves (FHV) at exit passageways and I'm a little confused.

The code states that a hose connection is required: "in every exit passageway at the entrance from the exit passageway to the other areas of a building.

Exception: Where floor areas adjacent to an exit passageway are reachable from exit stairway hose connections by a 30-foot (9144 mm) hose stream from a nozzle attached to 100 feet (30 480 mm) of hose, a hose connection shall not be required at the entrance from the exit passageway to other areas of the building."

What is the rationale behind locating a hose valve at the entry of the exit passageway?

Is this for fighting fires outside?

I have been told it is so that the fire department can quickly locate the hose valve, but I can't imagine they would want to run their hose 130-feet in the passageway just to then have another connection in the stairwell. My passageway is about 100-feet long and it connects to a stairwell that does have a fire hose valve located at the main landing.

Why would I need a fire hose valve at the entry of the exit passageway also, which is 100-ft away?

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I have a project that is under NFPA 13R (2019) and NFPA 14 (2019). In section 7.10.1.3.1.1 of NFPA 14, it states that in cases where NFPA 13R system demand is higher than the standpipe demand, the system demand applies.

Is it ever possible to have a residential sprinkler system with a higher demand than a standpipe?

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We have a project where the contractor tied in a new 4-inch standpipe into the existing 6-inch sprinkler main riser. Now it becomes a combination standpipe/fire sprinkler riser. 

My question is - does the contractor still need to install riser isolation valves on every floor? 

Per NFPA 13 8.17.5.2.2* the following restrictions shall apply:
(3) Each combined sprinkler and standpipe riser shall be equipped with a riser control valve to permit isolating a riser without interrupting the supply to other risers from the same source of supply. (For fire department connections serving standpipe and sprinkler systems, refer to Section 6.8). 

As of now the sprinkler main riser is not a part of their scope. Thanks in advance.

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Is a pumper truck from the fire department required to do standpipe flow testing?

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