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Who is Ultimately Responsible for a Design-Build Fire Protection Design?

4/12/2021

12 Comments

 
My question is more based on principle rather than design.

I have been in the industry for over years and keep coming to the same question lately; who is responsible for the end product on design and install?

I've had several projects in the last year where a "mechanical engineer (plumbing/HVAC)" are doing the layout for the schematic and bid drawings and don't have the complete knowledge of fire protection. I've had to deal with issues ranging from head spacing to pump specifications... and none of them have been close to code.

Specifically, I have a 3-story building with the 3rd floor at 30'-0" above apparatus / grade so there should be no need for standpipes. The plan/specs require an automatic-wet standpipe with a 125 psi @ 500 pump. I sent an RFI on why the need for the automatic-wet standpipes, where we can do away with standpipes or go to manual/wet and I was rejected. Ultimately, we were told to follow the prints....but we are "delegated" design. Eliminating the pump and standpipes, we could have saved the county $110,000+ (electric included).

I now have a church with 36-ft throw sidewalls and the engineer would like to stay with sidewalls and not have any pipe crossing the room; it's not possible with the supply.

In the end, who is responsible for the design and performance of the system?

If the contractor follows the plan/spec, is he liable because he is the "delegated" designer? But if the delegated design needs to change and is rejected, who is liable?

How do you bid plan and spec project if there are multiple issues with the bid plans? Do you redesign and bid it correct? No, you won't get the job. Or, do you bid per prints and then not be allowed change orders because you are the delegated designer?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
12 Comments

Detail Level to Provide for 120V Fire Alarm Power?

12/3/2020

6 Comments

 
As a consultant, what level of detail do you go into for the line voltage (120v) fire alarm plans and wiring?

The line voltage is affected by loads / fuse sizes and affects the disconnect switch size. I'm wondering about the level of detail that an engineer should be showing versus leaving the sizing to the fire alarm and electrical contractors based on their specific system layout requirements.

​​Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
6 Comments

Draw Remote Area on Inside or Outside of Walls?

11/16/2020

4 Comments

 
Where exactly is a remote area for a fire sprinkler hydraulic calculation drawn with respect to interior and exterior walls?

Is the remote area boundary along the inside, centerline, or outside edge of a wall?

Also, are small wall cavities or unsprinklered shafts right in the middle of a remote area included in that remote area square-footage?

I recognize that as much as I can fine-tooth a layout this really doesn't matter much in the overall scheme - and I typically would add a sprinkler or two to a calculation if the exact location of the remote area boundary would make or break an area threshold - but I've been curious about this as I'd like to be consistent with code and what should be done.

​​​​Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
4 Comments

Good Fire Plan Review Tools & Checklists?

9/23/2020

19 Comments

 
I'm an AHJ and I know many plan reviewers and inspectors in my area are new to the trade. 

Does anyone have recommendation(s) for good plan review checklists or tools for plan review that would be helpful to rookie and intermediate-level plan reviewers?

Thanks in advance.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Submitted anonymously and posted for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
19 Comments

To Buy or Not to Buy an Office Plotter?

8/27/2020

6 Comments

 
At what point does it become better to buy a plotter for the office? I'm a design outfit and only rarely send out drawings, but when I do they're pricey and I just bill it to the client out of a local print shop or the neighborhood Office Depot.

Any tips on what you made the decision to buy or not buy a plotter for your office, and any advice on models or brands to look into?

​Just curious, love the commentary on here and the wide range of opinions. Thanks in advance.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Submitted anonymously and posted for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
6 Comments

Estimating Design Hours for BIM Coordination?

4/28/2020

9 Comments

 
​Any BIM sprinkler coordinators here? What is your experience in estimating design effort for BIM Coordination?

Do you charge by the head or by hour? The last hospital I coordinated took 4 hours per sprinkler. 

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
9 Comments

Sprinkler Canopy When Bldg. Area Increase Used?

2/5/2020

4 Comments

 
This project has a canopy. It canopy is not attached to the building. The building is required to have a sprinkler system installed in accordance with IBC 903.3.1.1 (an NFPA 13 system) in order to increase the allowable building area. 

The canopy is providing weather protection for transit passengers. It's Type II-B, non-combustible, and made of steel, concrete, and metal panels. The canopy is also very large, and on its own exceeds the allowable area for a non-sprinklered Group A-3 occupancy.

Do the provisions of NFPA 13-2016 Section 8.15.7.2 (copied below) allow for an omission of sprinklers from an exterior canopy as described here?

8.15.7.2* Sprinklers shall be permitted to be omitted where the exterior canopies, roofs, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, and similar projections are constructed with materials that are noncombustible, limited-combustible, or fire retardant–treated wood as defined in NFPA 703, or where the projections are constructed utilizing a noncombustible frame, limited combustibles, or fire retardant–treated wood with an inherently flame-resistant fabric overlay as demonstrated by Test Method 2 in accordance with NFPA 701.

A.8.15.7.2 Vehicles that are temporarily parked are not considered storage. Areas located at drive-in bank windows or
porte-cocheres at hotels and motels normally do not require sprinklers where there is no occupancy above, where the area is entirely constructed of noncombustible or limited combustible materials or fire retardant–treated lumber, and
where the area is not the only means of egress. However, areas under exterior ceilings where the building is sprinklered
should be protected due to the occupancy above.


​​​Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
4 Comments

Ever Break Design at Flange Instead of 5-ft Out?

2/3/2020

5 Comments

 
One of the frustrating non real-world things in consulting is that on the contracting side, 99.9% of the time we start at flange inside the building. Red-line the contract if needed, or work out an informal deal with the underground contractor. 

On the consulting/engineering side we have this whole underground spec section, just for five-feet out, including tracing wire and tape, testing offsite soils, soils disposal, shoring, compaction, size of rock, etc.  I understand the civil engineers will only take it to five feet. 

I’ve asked my people why we can't just match reality and just start inside the building? I am told if we did there is this 5-ft. gap that has to be claimed by someone (despite what is done in reality).

Have you addressed this in your experience in any way? I am wondering how others deal with it. On the contracting side we all just made it happen.  On the consulting/paperwork side, it’s hard to make the paperwork match reality.  Do you even seen thrust block calcs submitted from anyone since it is part of the imaginary five-feet out?

Sorry, ranting a bit, it came to mind again today because I have constructability comments from the architect that recognized that in this particular case, the AHJ permit covers from the flange, their solution is to have my spec cover the entire fire line. I’m not comfortable with that.   

​​​Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
5 Comments

Best PDF Viewer for Measuring & Plan Review?

9/9/2019

12 Comments

 
I've used a very low-tier PDF editor and viewer and I'm interested in finding a better solution for viewing, marking up, and measuring basics like distance, perimeters, and areas. There's got to be better software options out there. I've heard of Bluebeam, Adobe and I've used Drawboard on my tablet.

What PDF editor & viewer would you recommend (free and paid) that works well in the design industry?

Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
12 Comments

Sprinklers: All-New Versus Modifying Existing?

5/28/2019

3 Comments

 
A project we're working on has an existing basement area that is broken up into many small existing rooms. Each room has varying ceiling heights and different grid directions.

The remodel that is going to be done will change all of these small spaces into three areas with a consistent new ceiling height that is about the average height of the existing ceilings.

If you are the engineer preparing bid documents in a scenario like this, would you call out for full pipe replacement, or only to modify the existing branch lines?

I would be interested in how others approach this issue prior to bid.

On one hand, modifying the existing system has the potential to save a significant amount of pipe, but could require some large stretches be raised to accommodate new ceilings and would require a good handful of labor to relocate sprinklers.

On the other hand, while an all-new pipe arrangement may cost more in material, it would be better able to coordinate with new HVAC ductwork and ceilings in the space and could possibly reduce the labor time with a pre-fabricated install.

Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
3 Comments

Any Advice for Specification Writers?

5/22/2019

3 Comments

 
I've taken technical writing courses and have experience working with MasterSpec, US Military specifications, vendor specifications, and various ownership standard specifications.

I'm giving an internal training to our younger staff and I'm particularly interested in opinions from contractors and vendors who regularly read a variety of specifications for bidding.

What advice would you give for those who write specifications? I'd be interested in helping train our staff as well as improve myself.

Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
3 Comments
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Our goal is to improve fire protection practices worldwide. We promote the industry by creating helpful tools and resources, and by bringing together industry professionals to share their expertise.

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The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

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  • Blog
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  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
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