Can "open parking garages" be located below high rise buildings?

If so, can the standpipes for the parking garage be manual dry and can sprinklers be omitted in the portion of the building considered an open-garage expect for the level directly below the high-rise occupancy?

Trying to get some big-picture understanding here, thanks.

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We have very deep beam glue-laminated timber construction that just has the laminated wood exposed to below.

The beams are very deep; 2'-9" deep. These form bays that are 13'-9" x 13'-9", many with smooth ceilings. The area below is light hazard.

Can sidewall sprinklers be used up in these coffered areas?

Can non-residential sprinklers be used in a NFPA 13R design?

NFPA 13R lists that residential sprinklers are permitted for use but does not list they are required to be used.

My understanding is that sprinklers used in NFPA 13 for light hazard would exceed or meet sprinkler requirements within NFPA 13R

On this premise, would installing a sprinkler for light hazard occupancy be exceeding NFPA 13R minimums, and thus be acceptable?

We have a dry sprinkler system we are installing in a small existing dormitory built with combustible construction.

We are using a NFPA 13R design approach which avoids sprinklering the attic space, with local AHJ approval. We need to have concealed sprinklers under request of the owner based on the occupancy, but there are not residential concealed dry pendent sprinklers, and the contractor is pushing to install recessed dry residential sprinklers.

Thanks in advance.

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Does FM Global design criteria weigh in on whether skylights require protection?

Do they simply adopt the same provisions in NFPA 13 in this regard? Or is there some devation?

I can't see any allowance for omission of sprinkler protection for skylights in Data Sheet 2-0.

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We have an internal discussion agreeing to disagree, regarding protection of a non-flammable powder coating booth in a tenant building with existing sprinkler system.

We are installing a dedicated auxiliary wet system dropping down with a loop to pick up a valve for an OHII system per NFPA 33 (2016) 9.4.2 (2). Protection Automatic Systems - Powder coating operations.

First Question - Section 9.2.1 and 9.7.1 indicates there must be a means to accomplish all of the following:

1. (1) Activate a local alarm in the vicinity of the of the spraying operation
   
2. (2) Transmit an alarm signal to the facility fire alarm system if such is provided. "In this case yes existing alarm, with existing overhead sprinkler system"
   
3. (3) Shut down the coating material delivery system
   
4. (4) Shut down all spray application operations
   
5. (5) Stop any conveyors into and out of the spray area.
   

To accomplish the above one side of the office believes a flow switch is needed to accomplish this requirement with double set of contacts.

The other side of the office contends the existing alarm system is adequate enough and if activated the main flow switch will accomplish this. The argument is if this is a dedicated auxiliary system with potential multiple tenants and requires the water flow switch for the Aux Booth System to activate per 9.2.1 and 9.7.1 as noted.

Is this correct?

Question 2 - if a flow switch is required to accomplish 9.2.1 there shall be a means to test with inspector's test connection or a riser manifold with a combination inspector's test & drain at the new dedicated auxiliary riser. Is that correct?

There needs to be an indicating control valve per 9.4.5 operable from floor level for the Aux. Booth System.

Question 3 - can the valve be chained and locked open or does this control valve need electrically supervised open.?

Does there need to be a main drain for this auxiliary system?

I think everyone can follow the arguments so would appreciate some responses. Much appreciated.

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Is the minimum length  for a remote area determined by the original Density/Area (such as 1,500 sqft so it would be 46.5 ft), or is it based on a modified/adjusted area (such as 900 sqft = 36 ft).

After doing this for years, I was trained and always took is as a given that we use the length based on the original area. I cannot seem to find an actual reference backing this up.

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When calculating the number of operating sprinklers in a design area for a hydraulic calculation and where we have 2 levels of protection, do we include:

a) Both those sprinklers in the void and below the suspended ceiling in the design area;
b) Just those sprinklers in the void;
c) Just those sprinklers below the ceiling, or 
d) 50% of each?

​Any responses really appreciated.

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We have a job that is a non-conditioned, pre-engineered metal building that serves as essentially a shipping hub for small parts.

There are approximately 34 roll back overhead doors, half on one side of the building, half on the other.

We live in an area where freezing happens every year, and the coldest temperature recorded during each year averages 4.6 degrees from 2021 to 1948.

The doors' tracks are installed at approximately 11'-0" AFF and the door opening is approximately 9'-6" tall. The doors are approximately 10' wide and equally spaced down the building in the 25' bays.

The sprinkler system inside the building will be a dry system due to the fact it is not a heated building but we will need sprinkler protection underneath the roll back doors. I think technically speaking the code would allow Option A; a single drop to feed two HSW heads with a 1" valve for drainage per 8.16.2.5.3.2 and 8.16.2.5.3.5 (2016 NFPA13).

But this would mean the owner is responsible for draining approximately 17 drains every year that are not even installed with drum drip assemblies, so tripping a system and/or yearly freeze ups could be a very real possibility.

Do you guys believe this would even technically be a code accepted method of protecting under these doors from a dry system in a building with no heat?

​Option A:​

Since sidewall sprinklers must be installed below smooth, flat ceilings, when I am confronted by beams installed perpendicular to the wall in which sidewall sprinklers are installed, I always install sidewalls below the smooth flat ceiling of each beam pocket.

My challenger suggests that if the "Obstruction Along Wall" rules of NFPA 13 Figs. 10.3.6.1.4 (2019 ed.) / 8.7.5.1.4 (2016 ed.) for standard spray sidewalls is met* then you can "skip" a beam pocket if the overall spacing and coverage is met.

Can you skip a beam pocket with a sidewall?

My opinion is that these are not intended for continuous obstructions such as beams, which adversely affect heat collection.

Y'all on my side?

*or the relevant figures for extended coverage sidewalls, or via the MeyerFire Sprinkler Obstruction Tool are met

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Where does - or does - NFPA 13 and NFPA 13D (2022 Edition) say that hydraulic calculations should be run from the most remote sprinkler to the water supply?

Apparently some hydraulic calculation programs print out the results backwards, which makes them harder to follow.

Thanks in advance.

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I'm working on a performing arts theater in California. There are floating clouds with pendents in them.

I seem to remember an inspector bringing up an NFPA requirement for either a swing joint or a flexible drop to connect to the pendent sprinkler. I can't find anything in the 2016 Edition of NFPA 13.

Is there a requirement for a swing joint or flexible drop for a cloud?

Could anyone provide a code reference?

Thanks in advance.

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For a workshop paint spray, is there a delineation for when NFPA 30B is applicable?

I am working on a maintenance shop which has a few spray paint cans. Since they are aerosols, NFPA 13 says to use NFPA 30B which has some pretty drastic requirements for design density.

Yes, the easy answer is a flammable storage locker, but has anyone ever had to design to the full requirements just by the mere presence of paint spray cans?

Thanks in advance.

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For a horizontal split case fire pump, 10 pipe diameters of straight pipe is to be provided for the suction inlet.

My design includes a gate valve and strainer within the 10 pipe diameters.

Is the strainer allowable in this range?

I'm unable to find in NFPA 20 any input on this. Thanks in advance.

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What is the proper point in a system to take the antifreeze sample? 

I have taken readings at both outlets at the check valve, unfortunately a contractor is saying to take it at the most remote point. Those locations are either 25-feet in the air, or not installed at all.

Thanks in advance.

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I have (2) different storage scenarios with the same product. They are empty 5 liter HDPE containers from 2 different manufactures and packaging slightly different but both having cardboard dividers and on wood pallets.

I am leaning towards exposed expanded encapsulated Group "A" on the pallet load without cardboard sides due to the row of containers enclosed in plastic bags.

The pallet load with the cardboard partial sides and full cardboard top would be the same due to having only partial sides.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

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I have question regarding fire pump capacity.

In my situation the water department is requiring a city tap size to be 2 pipe sizes larger than the fire protection backflow preventer.

In my project, I was using a 4" backflow and 400 gpm fire pump so my underground/city tap would be required to be at least 6 inches.

The AHJ is requiring me to increase the area size in one of my remote areas. So, my sprinkler demand now becomes 582 gpm. To avoid having to use a 500gpm fire pump (with a minimum suction size of 6-inch) and increase the underground to 8-inch, could I still use the 400 gpm fire pump to supply the 582 gpm demand?

This comes out to about 145% of the pumps rated capacity.

I have never come close to the 150% mark before and just want to see what others think. If the underground size wasn't required to be 2 inches larger I wouldn't even think about it and go with the 500 gpm pump.

Thanks in advance.

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We are working on freeze protection for an enclosed canopy which is also attached to the main building. There is no exposed metal pipe to the elements.

Per the AHJ, the only approved insulating process for metal sprinkler pipe is a thermal paint insulation.

I found the section for wrapped insulation that is allowed on non-metallic pipe by NFPA 13, but is there a section where wrapped insulation can be used on metal pipe?

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We have a building that is constructed. It has a very deep footing.

The contractor originally submitted an Ames In-Building Riser, but it's too deep for the in-building riser in the building's (essentially) existing condition.

They proposed using C900 to come under the footing, without a sleeve, going below the 12" footing and then stubbing up into the riser room without thrust blocks.

We have concerns about restraint and a change of direction underneath the foundation.

NFPA 13 applies and C900 is a permitted material, which is what the contractor has suggested makes it acceptable.

Is routing C900 under a building footing, changing direction, and then stubbing into the building acceptable?

NFPA 20 says that if the test header supply main is more than 15 feet from the fire pump, it must be increased one pipe size or hydraulically calculated based on 150 percent of the rated pump capacity.

What form does the hydraulic calculation take?

Are we trying to determine if the main can flow 150 percent of the pump rating without running out of pressure?

How low a pressure would be acceptable?

Is this a one time calculation to size the main or is this a calculation that must be performed during each annual fire pump test?

Thanks in advance.

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I am trying to figure out how to protect an existing building that has never had a sprinkler system.

The building peaks at 46'-5" and in that area you can only have a max height of 25'-0 in storage, due to operable cranes in the bay.

Additionally, the building is constructed using 12" purlins, so ESFR pendants are out unless we want to put them on return bends.

I am trying to give the owner as much storage space as possible, and commodities as they plan to rent the building out to tenants in the future. I have searched through CMSA, CMDA, ESFR and storage to find a situation that best describes it.

The issue I always come up on, is the distance from top of storage to ceiling. Every scenario I have looked at, we seem to exceed the 10' or 20' maximum distance.

Does anyone have some criteria they used that is close to the situation above?

Thanks in advance.

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We are a structural engineer currently work for an architect on a small assembly hall project; a wedding venue that will seat over 99, which will require sprinkler protection.

The roof structure will be wood scissors trusses, 5’-7” deep at the center – see below.

​I mentioned to the architect that they will have to protect the “attic” space also with sprinklers.

In response, the architect said the owners want to finish the ceiling and insulate the attic space.

Where is it written about the maximum cavity size without sprinklers? Is it any cavity?

If so possibly we fill the entire attic space, which is small because of the unique scissors trusses. I don’t think this would be economical or practical.

But, what would the cavity depth have to be (underside of roof deck to top of batt or blown insulation) so that sprinkler protection of that concealed combustible space is not required?

I assume if this space is not sprinkler protected that “attic” compartments would be required. Any guidance on this matter would be appreciated. Thank you.

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I have a situation where I need to protect a modular home manufacturing facility.

It has a paint both that's self-contained with its own sprinkler hookups, all the regulars of a tiny home making shop basically. They will have rack storage of wood products up to 20' high and wanted the design to be such that they could move the storage rack locations in the future if they wished.

NFPA 13 (2016) A.5.4.2 gives a list of some Extra Hazard Group 2 occupancies and it specifically lists (4) Manufactured home or modular building assemblies (where finished enclosure is present and has combustible interiors) I had made the assumption that ESFR was a worst case, safe bet design for the entire facility due to the amount of water you get from heads opening up.

The contractor is concerned with how code says one thing in one place and something open to interpretation in another place. Section 8.4.6.6 says "ESFR sprinklers designed to meet any criteria in Chapter 12 through Chapter 20 shall be permitted to protect light and ordinary hazard applications."

That's fine, but I just see that as just a statement.

When you get to the requirements for Storage, Section 12.6.7.1 says the following: "ESFR sprinklers designed to meet any criteria in Chapter 12 or Chapter 14 through Chapter 20 shall be permitted to protect any of the following: (1) Light hazard occupancies (2) Ordinary hazard occupancies (3) Any storage arrangement in Chapter 13 referencing OH1, OH2, EH1, and EH2 design criteria"

Item 3 is where I want to make the argument that we can in fact use ESFR sprinklers in an Extra Hazard Group 2 scenario.

Can ESFR be used for an Extra Hazard Group 2 situation like this?

I need some expert opinions/interpretations. Thanks in advance.

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I'm a plan reviewer for a project that's coming into our area. We have a local gym/special amusement facility that has several foam pit areas.

What is an appropriate sprinkler design criteria for a foam pit?

The plans call for a 5-ft platform, which leads us to believe the pit is 5-ft or less in depth, but we're not sure about the building on the platform of other foam pads; so there's a chance this depth could exceed 5-ft when it's all said and done and measured with a tape.

Best I can relate to for this type of situation is in NFPA 13 2022 edition, Section 4.3.1.7.2.4, which references Table 4.3.1.7.1.1. Also, I've referenced IFC 3203.7.1 for classification.

Is there any other information that you can point me to for guidance?

If so, it would be greatly appreciated.

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Can the pipe from a remote FDC at the front of our building route under the building slab to connect to our fire pump room at the back of the building?

The Fire Pump Room is on the basement level.

This is for a six-story hotel with a partial basement along the back portion of the building that is open to a lower grade level in back. Here's a sketch below.

The fire marshal requires a remote FDC at the sidewalk in front of the building. Our fire pump room happens to be on the opposite side, in the back.

The most straightforward routing is below the building, but it is minimum 60' of run which certainly exceeds the 10' maximum distance allowed for the fire supply from NFPA 13.

Going above the first floor ceiling is challenging given all the interiors/ceilings, public spaces, and glass at the street front.

Given that the FDC pipe is normally-dry and not pressurized, do we have the same restrictions of 10' max below grade?

Even if not, can't say I'm thrilled about having that many joints below our building above. Thanks for your help/thoughts!

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What is the required duration for a Secondary Water Supply within Seismic Zone?

IBC Section 403.3.3:
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"The secondary water supply shall have a duration of not less than 30 minutes as determined by the occupancy hazard classification in accordance with NFPA 13."

Does this mean minimum 30 minutes, with the gpm/demand determined by NFPA 13?

Or the minimum duration is also determined by NFPA 13, such that the secondary water supply could require an even longer duration, like 60 minutes?

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