I had a client ask about Oxygen-Reduced Systems (ORS), aka Hypoxic air technology (displacing ambient oxygen in an enclosed environment such as in warehouses). I did a quick read with what's available on Wiki, FM and NFPA. But even my go-to suppression people have hardly encountered these. Testing has been very specific.
Just to increase my knowledge, does anyone here have an practical experience in these? Are these systems really being installed? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
14 Comments
Can full height walls within a room create an obstructed construction situation in an otherwise unobstructed construction building?
As an example, you have a room with full height walls and a single exposed beam (in noncombustible construction) with the distance from the centerline of the beam to both parallel walls less than 7'-6". If allowed to define this as obstructed construction, a single sprinkler 1" to 6" below the bottom of the beam may be sufficient. If not, it may require a sprinkler on both sides of the beam. In a multiple-office type of occupancy this could save a lot of sprinklers. This example is assuming following all the rules for obstructed construction and the depth of the beam being such that you can't use the obstruction to sprinkler discharge rules to avoid the obstruction. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Topic: Water Delivery Time in Single Interlock Preaction Systems Question:
I'm currently designing a single-interlock preaction system and I'm seeking clarification about the water delivery time requirements under NFPA 13 (2013). Section 7.3.2.2 mentions that the system size cannot exceed 1,000 automatic sprinklers but doesn't specify the water delivery time for single interlock systems. On the other hand, Section 7.3.2.3 clearly states that double interlock preaction systems must deliver water within no more than 60 seconds. Does this mean that single interlock systems are not required to adhere to a specific timeframe for water delivery? In my view, it makes sense to not include a delivery time for single interlock systems, since water should already be at the sprinkler prior to activation. I'm interested in others' views or experiences in this area. Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am working on a permit for a 1,500 sqft (750 sqft/ floor) new construction live/work building R-2 in California (2022 California Building Code, which is based on IBC). It has a 1-bedroom apartment above with only "work" space below.
The building code allows for Live/Work R-2 to be protected with NFPA 13R. In the building code the only uses not allowed in the "work" area of Live/work are Group H & S. Where all of this gets hazy is that I interpret the code as 13R being allowed to protect this whole building regardless of use except for uses S or H. For instance would a small pizza joint be allowed in this "work" space as long as it did not have special hazards that would require an ANSL or NFPA 13 system? Or is Live/Work with 13R just purely limited to office, barber, professional space, etc.? From multiple angles I am trying to understand the true limits of Live/work when there are no local ordinances that limit the "work" space use except S & H. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a building that has both a free standing fire department connection (FDC) and a post-indicator valve (PIV) out at the drive entrance to the single-story building as requested by the Fire Marshal.
Construction has now started up for the site and the Fire Marshal is saying there is a code requirement for the PIV and FDC to be 50-ft apart and wants them moved. He is unsure of the exact distance, but he insists this is a code requirement and that it's not a local requirement. For reference, we are under the 2015 IBC/IFC and 2013 NFPA code editions. Is there any requirement for the PIV and FDC to be 50-ft apart? I cannot find any requirement like this in the IBC, IFC, or NFPA 13 or 24. There are sections in both NFPA 13 and 24 that vaguely say PIVs shall be protected against mechanical damage, but they give no minimum distance from objects. IFC/IBC both list minimum 36-in clearance around the FDC. I think the Fire Marshal might be confusing the 40ft requirement from buildings for the PIV, or, this is a local preference, but they do insist otherwise. I know at the end of the day the Fire Marshal gets whatever they want for the PIV and FDC placement, but I really want to make sure that there is not some hidden requirement I cannot find. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a storage building that is non-sprinklered, it only has fire alarm. The ceiling height in some areas of the building with storage of tires is up to 10-ft in height, and others up to 15-ft in height.
How many tires can be stored? Is there a limit to the amount of storage? Does storing on tread or on side matter? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a project in the Miami area where there are some exterior glass panels that need to be 1-hour fire rated.
I specified the glass to be fire rated type, but it prices are coming back too high. The contractor is looking into an alternative of providing fire sprinkler protection on the inside face of the glass. Is this a feasible idea? The wall that the glass is part of requires the rating due to its being within 10' of some adjacent exterior glass. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a fire sprinkler tree system that has a 6" centerline down from a metal deck (mains and lines).
Since an air release valve is required at the end of the system, what are our options for installation? All the options I can find are too tall to fit with our piping so close to the deck. We are not able to lower the piping due to other trades. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a steel aircraft storage hanger Group 1. It's approximately 50-ft high with exposed steel columns requiring a fire rating per NFPA 409-2022 Edition.
The steel will not be fireproofed but will be protected with sprinklers in accordance with NFPA 409 5.6.3.4. Can pendent sprinklers, installed sideways, be used to satisfy NFPA 409 for column protection? In the past we have protected the columns with sidewall sprinklers spaced according to 409 and on alternating sides of the column. Then the sidewalls were changed to pendent sprinklers installed horizontally to provide better spray distribution on the columns as the sidewall spray tended to (in theory at least) bounce the spray back in stead of vertically. This approach has been accepted by EOR and AHJs alike. NFPA 409 states that "wetting of the lower sprinkler should be considered" although multiple level sprinklers were never used. I'm not sure how this plays in. I recall reading that pendents installed horizontally could be used for column protection due to better spray distribution, however, I cannot find that in code. The client is not open to fireproofing or intumescent paint; column sprinkler protection is in the bit and is going to be used. All is appreciated! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does anyone know of any literature summarizing standpipe design changes history for the last 130 years or so?
Something to the effect of:
With more enforcement of 5-year standpipe flow testing in our area we find ourselves spending a lot of time trying to locate older versions of NFPA and NBFU to see the design basis at the time of construction to determine testing procedure. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can an assisted living facility that installed a an NFPA 13 compliant system which was only required to be a 13R now remove the dry attic part of the system?
They have had corrosion issues and leaks they are wanting to avoid. The only reason they installed the 13 system is initially they envisioned possible adding a skilled care section which is now not happening. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is there any requirement for a standpipe to be installed due to travel distance between stairwells in a 3-story R-2 building?
I am reviewing plans of a U-shaped apartment building with two stairwells on the ends. The distance between them is about 470 feet. We are under the 2018 IFC. If not required by code, would you as the AHJ consider requiring them for improved fire operations? Thanks for any feedback. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are foam system test headers allowed to flow outside and discharge the foam to the ground/storm water?
I see more and more places are banning AFFF from storm water. What about flowing AR-SFFF to storm? Any recommendations for capture if its not allowed to be send down the storm drain? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In regards to a trapeze pipe support, isn't there an option to size the rod that connects structure to the trapeze pipe separately from the rod from the trapeze pipe to sprinkler pipe?
Couldn't that be two separate calculations considering there are two rods for the trapeze and only one to the sprinkler main? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe You all are awesome. The quality and diversity of perspectives here is second to none - and I'm very thankful for the contributions everyone has made these last few years. The quality of discussion and insight is far better than I could have hoped for when first starting this Forum back about five years or so ago now. Thank you to everyone for continuing to make this Forum such an insightful success and help to share ideas and best practices for the industry. Here are the Top Forum Contributors in 2023 (in alphabetical order): As a thank you from our team for helping shape the industry in a positive way, each Top Contributor will get a plaque like the one shown above. We'll also make note with a flag next to each person's name in future leaderboards. Thanks for being a part of the community and helping move the industry forward! - Joe Meyer Would you require a pressure gauge on the bottom side of the backflow device? NFPA 13 says pressure gauges shall be installed above and below each “alarm” check valve or “system riser” check valve where such devices are present. Is the backflow preventer considered an alarm check or riser check valve? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an indoor amusement park (skiing activities) which has a back of house space where in machines are being repaired and refueled. There is a diesel storage room which a 1,320 gallon tank (5 cubic meters).
The room does not have any fire resistance rated walls and is also used for storing paint thinners (Class 2 flammable liquid). Just outside this room is a welding space. Is there guidance, somewhere, on what needs to be considered here for fire and life safety? I tried using NFPA 1, NFPA 30, and NFPA 101, but since this diesel tank is inside the space, I've not been able to find a reasonable solution in terms of fire and life safety requirements. Thanks for the input. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is CPVC allowed to be run exposed through a small storage room?
Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I’m wondering if you can help me on this one. I have a project with the detail below referencing the use of the U419 listed assembly, but with the drywall only on one side of the assembly. I asked for verification that the U419 assembly would permit this and he provided me with the attachment referencing section 5A. I don’t believe that was the intent for section 5A of the listing, but I can’t figure out what the actual intent is.
Is drywall on only one side of the assembly here correct? Is it allowed anywhere? It is something that has come up since there is a V497 listed assembly that puts both layers of drywall on one side of the wall, but my understanding has always been that it was used only on the interior side of exterior walls required only to be rated from the inside (IBC Section 705.5). Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. I appreciate your help. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a showroom with an open mezzanine that takes up around 30% of the floor area. The bottom and the top of the mezzanine are office areas. The showroom has a ceiling height of 23-ft while the mezzanine has a ceiling height of 11-ft.
We designed the the showroom as Ordinary Hazard using standard response, extended coverage sprinklers (18' x 18') on the ceiling with the top part of the mezzanine also being protected with standard response, extended coverage. There are no walls on the top side of mezzanine. On the flip side, we designed the bottom part of the mezzanine using Quick Response, Light Hazard (15' x 15' ) spacing since it's an office (Light Hazard occupancy). However, since this is an open mezzanine with no walls separating between the two spaces, this means that both these areas would be considered one compartment. Under NFPA 13, sprinklers in the same compartment should be the same response type and hazard levels. However, would the elevation difference and the mezzanine floor separating the two make it okay to have two different type of hazard level and response type? If not, what about adding draft curtains? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a tree, wet system, we are using Schedule 7 for the mains and branch lines.
We are trying to design the seismic bracing, and the main is only strong enough for one side of branch lines, not the opposite side too. Should we use stronger pipe, or install more laterals? Is there a way to brace the branch lines to take the weight off the mains? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What is the difference between feed main and cross-main in a sprinkler system?
As NFPA 13 mentions, feed main supplies the cross mains but in tree sometimes main pipe continues and supply the branches. What's the difference? Are we talking about each individual piece of pipe? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Would it be possible to replace a Kennedy K-10 dry barrel fire hydrant with a wet barrel fire hydrant if the main valve of the K-10 was left open, and a wet barrel hydrant was then bolted to the standpipe base?
We're in southern California, so we commonly have wet barrel hydrants in the area. Replacing with a wet barrel means we wouldn't have to excavate. The main reason I see is that the drain holes would be left open if the dry barrel main valve is removed. We have been unable to find new main valves for Kennedy K-10 hydrants. Your comments would be greatly appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a dining room in a clubhouse that has multiple ceiling pockets at different sizes that are 1-5" in depth.
The total cubic footage of these pockets is 1,165 cubic feet. Could I protect one of the pockets in this space to bring my total unprotected pockets under 1,000 cubic feet, and leave the rest of these pockets unprotected? The entire floor space in this area will be protected. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a K14 ESFR system in a tall building; 45-ft peak and 35-ft eaves, that was hit by the changes in NFPA 13 and there is now a recommendation to upgrade protection to K25 ESFR sprinklers due to the roof height.
The current design is a very strong 12 K14 @ 90 psi and the storage is low at 16-ft of palletized Class III and IV goods. Based on the current storage arrangement, 2022 NFPA 13 allows for either K25 ESFR system or a CDMA design of .64/2,000 using ordinary temperature sprinklers. Is is permissible to recalculate ESFR systems with a CDMA design? If so, is there any specific mention or directive in code? I am not a designer but back of napkin math indicates I have a 1.33 gpm/sqft. density over the first 1,200 sqft based on the ESFR design and probably a .80/2,000. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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