In regards to a trapeze pipe support, isn't there an option to size the rod that connects structure to the trapeze pipe separately from the rod from the trapeze pipe to sprinkler pipe?
Couldn't that be two separate calculations considering there are two rods for the trapeze and only one to the sprinkler main? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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You all are awesome. The quality and diversity of perspectives here is second to none - and I'm very thankful for the contributions everyone has made these last few years. The quality of discussion and insight is far better than I could have hoped for when first starting this Forum back about five years or so ago now. Thank you to everyone for continuing to make this Forum such an insightful success and help to share ideas and best practices for the industry. Here are the Top Forum Contributors in 2023 (in alphabetical order): As a thank you from our team for helping shape the industry in a positive way, each Top Contributor will get a plaque like the one shown above. We'll also make note with a flag next to each person's name in future leaderboards. Thanks for being a part of the community and helping move the industry forward! - Joe Meyer Would you require a pressure gauge on the bottom side of the backflow device? NFPA 13 says pressure gauges shall be installed above and below each “alarm” check valve or “system riser” check valve where such devices are present. Is the backflow preventer considered an alarm check or riser check valve? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an indoor amusement park (skiing activities) which has a back of house space where in machines are being repaired and refueled. There is a diesel storage room which a 1,320 gallon tank (5 cubic meters).
The room does not have any fire resistance rated walls and is also used for storing paint thinners (Class 2 flammable liquid). Just outside this room is a welding space. Is there guidance, somewhere, on what needs to be considered here for fire and life safety? I tried using NFPA 1, NFPA 30, and NFPA 101, but since this diesel tank is inside the space, I've not been able to find a reasonable solution in terms of fire and life safety requirements. Thanks for the input. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is CPVC allowed to be run exposed through a small storage room?
Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I’m wondering if you can help me on this one. I have a project with the detail below referencing the use of the U419 listed assembly, but with the drywall only on one side of the assembly. I asked for verification that the U419 assembly would permit this and he provided me with the attachment referencing section 5A. I don’t believe that was the intent for section 5A of the listing, but I can’t figure out what the actual intent is.
Is drywall on only one side of the assembly here correct? Is it allowed anywhere? It is something that has come up since there is a V497 listed assembly that puts both layers of drywall on one side of the wall, but my understanding has always been that it was used only on the interior side of exterior walls required only to be rated from the inside (IBC Section 705.5). Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. I appreciate your help. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a showroom with an open mezzanine that takes up around 30% of the floor area. The bottom and the top of the mezzanine are office areas. The showroom has a ceiling height of 23-ft while the mezzanine has a ceiling height of 11-ft.
We designed the the showroom as Ordinary Hazard using standard response, extended coverage sprinklers (18' x 18') on the ceiling with the top part of the mezzanine also being protected with standard response, extended coverage. There are no walls on the top side of mezzanine. On the flip side, we designed the bottom part of the mezzanine using Quick Response, Light Hazard (15' x 15' ) spacing since it's an office (Light Hazard occupancy). However, since this is an open mezzanine with no walls separating between the two spaces, this means that both these areas would be considered one compartment. Under NFPA 13, sprinklers in the same compartment should be the same response type and hazard levels. However, would the elevation difference and the mezzanine floor separating the two make it okay to have two different type of hazard level and response type? If not, what about adding draft curtains? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a tree, wet system, we are using Schedule 7 for the mains and branch lines.
We are trying to design the seismic bracing, and the main is only strong enough for one side of branch lines, not the opposite side too. Should we use stronger pipe, or install more laterals? Is there a way to brace the branch lines to take the weight off the mains? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What is the difference between feed main and cross-main in a sprinkler system?
As NFPA 13 mentions, feed main supplies the cross mains but in tree sometimes main pipe continues and supply the branches. What's the difference? Are we talking about each individual piece of pipe? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Would it be possible to replace a Kennedy K-10 dry barrel fire hydrant with a wet barrel fire hydrant if the main valve of the K-10 was left open, and a wet barrel hydrant was then bolted to the standpipe base?
We're in southern California, so we commonly have wet barrel hydrants in the area. Replacing with a wet barrel means we wouldn't have to excavate. The main reason I see is that the drain holes would be left open if the dry barrel main valve is removed. We have been unable to find new main valves for Kennedy K-10 hydrants. Your comments would be greatly appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a dining room in a clubhouse that has multiple ceiling pockets at different sizes that are 1-5" in depth.
The total cubic footage of these pockets is 1,165 cubic feet. Could I protect one of the pockets in this space to bring my total unprotected pockets under 1,000 cubic feet, and leave the rest of these pockets unprotected? The entire floor space in this area will be protected. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a K14 ESFR system in a tall building; 45-ft peak and 35-ft eaves, that was hit by the changes in NFPA 13 and there is now a recommendation to upgrade protection to K25 ESFR sprinklers due to the roof height.
The current design is a very strong 12 K14 @ 90 psi and the storage is low at 16-ft of palletized Class III and IV goods. Based on the current storage arrangement, 2022 NFPA 13 allows for either K25 ESFR system or a CDMA design of .64/2,000 using ordinary temperature sprinklers. Is is permissible to recalculate ESFR systems with a CDMA design? If so, is there any specific mention or directive in code? I am not a designer but back of napkin math indicates I have a 1.33 gpm/sqft. density over the first 1,200 sqft based on the ESFR design and probably a .80/2,000. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can all main drains can be joined in one pipe?
If they can, does this pipe need to be capable of handling all flow at the same time? Are there any downsides to ganging them together? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Where would I go to find CMDA protection of Rack Storage less than 12-ft?
In this particular case, I'm looking at Class III commodities on wire racks in a 2,000 sqft room with 8-ft ceilings. This is paper file storage. In the past, I have been able to use the miscellaneous storage requirements, but not this time. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a car park area which is part of a bigger development that we are sub-dividing into different pressure zones due to it being a very tall building. The three levels of car park in total are less than 65-ft (20 m) high, but they are very long and wide. My question is about sprinkler control valve areas.
I know for ordinary hazard the restriction per floor from one riser is 52,000 sqft (4830 sqm) with no restriction as you go up. Does that mean for a wide, low-level building, say on 1 level, do we need a system riser for each 52,000 sqft? This seems pretty onerous to me, as FM Global do not even insist on this. Here in England, the restriction is 12,000 sqm x 10 floors per valve. I'm being asked by the authorities to allow the valves, but is that restriction of 52,000 sqft (4830 sqm) per valve set on a single floor set in stone? Can we do something based on hydraulic calculation that is more user friendly? Thanks in advance. Want to get a recap email in the afternoon so that you can view the ongoing discussion? Enter your email below and you'll get a recap email with a link to the comments at 3pm Central Time US. Does NFPA 13 address the ability to size sprinkler pipe simply by being "sized by similarity"?
For instance, I have a small room that has (4) 1/2" pendent sprinklers to be located in it. I cannot determine any pipe routing from above due to an old ceiling but can verify the lines are 1-1/2" schedule 40. I've heard of this method being used but do not find it in NFPA 13 so I'm hesitant to use this method. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is there a room volume cut off that you use for clean agent space to make sure that your system will pass the room integrity fan test?
As an extreme example, a 50,000 sf space would probably be better for something like a double interlock preaction system since it would be difficult to make sure that the space is of tight enough construction to hold the clean agent (there will inherently be some leaks in construction despite doing all the recommended practices of gasketing, door threshold blocking, etc). Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe For a project that has seismic expansions and the fire sprinkler piping is predominately CPVC, are seismic loops or assemblies still required?
If so, is there are preferred installation method? Would we need to transition to steel, then back to CPVC, in order to install a Metraflex or similar product? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Fire alarm question for an ICC state that adopts 2012 IBC/IFC & NFPA 72, 2010 edition.
I have an existing mixed use F-1 & S-1 occupancy. This building was originally built in 1910 with two additions over the years. The building sustained fire damage a year ago and is undergoing repairs, no additions, just repairing fire damage that was quite extensive. The building is not sprinkled (not required when built). They had a partial alarm system installed about 35 years ago. The insurance will cover the cost to repair/replace the partial system only, which will require a new FACP, wiring and initiating devices. Insurance will pay for a new system to cover the entire building, if required by code. We cannot find anything in NFPA 72 that requires the entire building to have alarm coverage. There is no requirement in the IBC for F occupancies (single story, grade level) to have an alarm system. We do see where non-required systems shall be allowed to be partial. The question is, since this alarm system is being modified, is there any requirement for the entire building to be alarmed in NFPA 72? The AHJ would also like to see the entire building to be alarmed, but doesn’t think he can require it by code since it would technically be a non-required system per the IBC. The only thing he could think of was the requirement for manual pull stations at each exit since the building is not sprinkled. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an ESFR project with Obstructed Construction and want to be sure we're locating the height of the sprinkler 100% correct. This is an FM-Global project.
We are using K14 ESFR uprights. The bays are 25-ft x 25-ft boxed with W27 beams and contain small bays with W18 beams that are 6'-3" in-between. As far as I can tell, the sprinkler height is compliant as long as the center of the operating element does not exceed 6-inches below the W18 beams, to a maximum of 22-inches below the deck. So 4-inches maximum below the W18 beams is the target. We're using Table 8 in FM Data Sheet 8-9 for the design criteria. Is this approach correct? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe NFPA 13, 2022 Edition, Sections 28.2.4.2.4 says to that a design area can be only the sprinklers within the available design area whenever the available floor area is less than the density/area size.
The next section, Section 28.2.4.2.5, says that when the total flow is less than the density x minimum design area, an additional flow (phantom flow) shall be added at the common point of connection. When do you apply one versus the other? If I am interpreting this correctly, you only apply the 28.2.4.2.5 when you have the available floor area, but not the minimum flow? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does the requirement under NFPA 25, Chapter 14 for a 5-year internal pipe inspection apply if the system is an open sprinkler/nozzle deluge system?
The system is flowed annually and I believe that this full flow should meet the requirement in lieu of a 5-year internal pipe inspection. Am I correct? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a passenger elevator that is a traction, machine room-less (MRL).
Under NFPA 13, 2013 Edition, Section 8.15.5.2, a 'sprinkler shall not be required for enclosed, non-combustible elevator shafts that do not contain combustible hydraulic fluids.' NFPA 72, 2013 Edition, Section 21.3.6 states that 'smoke detectors shall not be installed in unsprinklered hoistways unless they are installed to activate the elevator hoistway smoke relief equipment.' I believe these would apply to this elevator. Does the elevator only require lobby smoke detectors, including first floor for recall and second floor for alternate recall? Is a smoke detector actually required within the shaft? This is my first MRL elevator and I want to make sure we cover everything that's required. I would appreciate you views on this, thank you! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe For the acceptance testing of a dry pipe sprinkler system, is a 24-hour 40 psi pneumatic test required, or will the 200 psi hydrostatic test alone suffice?
Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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