Is there any requirement for a standpipe to be installed due to travel distance between stairwells in a 3-story R-2 building?
I am reviewing plans of a U-shaped apartment building with two stairwells on the ends. The distance between them is about 470 feet. We are under the 2018 IFC. If not required by code, would you as the AHJ consider requiring them for improved fire operations? Thanks for any feedback. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
13 Comments
Danial Bartle
1/8/2024 08:22:21 am
We are under NFPA 14 (2016) and the requirements are based on sprinklered or not:
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Chad
1/8/2024 08:34:28 am
Depends on how you (the FD) operates (I cannot imagine working where they are not required frankly). Stretching 3 stories with a 2-1/2 (or 3" with packed 1-3/4") is a PITA and time suck if you don't have 5 guys on an Engine. It sucks with 3 guys, just takes a lot longer. You should not consider 1-3/4 alone, its too long of a lay on the 3rd floor 200+ feet in, IMO.
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Todd Wyatt
1/8/2024 08:50:55 am
Q : Is there any requirement for a standpipe to be installed due to travel distance between stairwells in a 3-story R-2 building?
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Robert Morgan
1/8/2024 10:26:18 am
"AHJs cannot require the Design to exceed these minimum requirements, however."
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Anthony
1/8/2024 09:31:09 am
Maximum travel distance for a fully sprinklered building per NFPA 14 of any hose is 200 ft. so you'll need additional hose statins located with consultation to the AHJ. (propose a location and send them a drawing showing what you want to do don't just ask an open ended "where do you want theses")
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Brian Hannah
1/8/2024 09:43:19 am
Even if required, the hose valves will not likely ever be used. Operationally, it's not wise to attack a fire with a hose line connected inside the IDLH atmosphere. If a crew is on a nozzle and has to retreat, they will follow their hoseline back to a safe environment. If they can only follow it back to a spot in the center of the building, and there's no horizontal exit, their safety could be greatly compromised.
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TYLER
1/11/2024 08:25:26 am
Great response. Makes total sense.
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Casey Milhorn
1/8/2024 10:04:50 am
So are standpipes being required due to the top floor being over 30' in elevation from lowest level of fire department access?
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Jesse
1/8/2024 10:56:17 am
Its a Monday so I'm not sure I understand the question.
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Pete H
1/8/2024 11:42:36 am
Based on the comments it seems like:
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Brian Merkley
1/9/2024 12:40:44 pm
Thanks for the feedback thus far. The floor of the 3rd story is 20 feet above grade. From what I gather based on the comments, IFC / IBC would not require standpipes as it's not above 30' or 4 stories. But IF they were required, they would have to comply with NFPA 14 and have to be spaced at 200' travel distance maximum.
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Dwight Havens
1/9/2024 03:02:02 pm
This issue has bugged me for over 40 years. At one time exit access travel distances aligned well with the allowable separation between standpipes. As the building codes slowly increased the allowance for access travel distance, little consideration was given for the amount of hose necessary to reach the fire from wherever the source the hose will be connected to (standpipe or engine). To accommodate the resultant increase between standpipes, many departments upped the amount of hose available for the "stretch", be it from the engine or a standpipe. In this example, if the the stretch is from the engine on a three story building with no standpipes, it is the distance from where the engine parks, to the point of exit discharge from the building, then up the stairs to the fire floor, then down the hall to the door of the apartment, then into the apartment until you are close enough to to find and hit the fire. The alternative to that is to plan an exterior attack, where you can gain access to an adjacent apartment, or one near the apartment on fire and either enter the building through a window, or advance down the hallway to that adjacent apartment to pull an attack lien through its window. This takes time, and this second option still would, for the safety of the team, require the hose team advancing down the hall to have a hose line supplied from an engine, so why bother pulling a hose up, and require a second engine. Standard hose lays used to be 150 or 200 feet of 1-1/2. In order to successfully reach the seat of the fire in modern buildings, we pack 200 feet of 1-3/4 supplied by 50 feet of 2-1/2 preconnected, but sitting on an additional 200 feet of dead lay in case it is needed. We also pack a "long lay" for those situations where we do not know how long the stretch will be. It consists of 200 feet of 1-3/4 connected to 600 feet of 2-1/2, which can be broken and connected to the engine once we figure out where the fire is, Hauling this much hose is incredibly labor intensive, and, again, takes a lot of time.
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Dwight Havens
1/9/2024 03:09:49 pm
Correction: I believe that the long lay has 5 lengths of 1-3/4 (250 feet) and 6 lengths of 2-1/2 (300 feet).
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