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Suppose you have a small enough elevator lobby with hold-open doors.
Could you use one detector to activate both recall and door closing, so long as you comply with the spacing requirements for both the doors (based on ceilings) and distance to the elevator(s)? I don't see why you couldn't if you have an intelligent system that could achieve this through programming, and I don't see anything in NFPA 72 that would prohibit this either. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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Is a library vault filled with Class A banker boxes filled with paper on multiple shelves considered a deep seated fire hazard?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe To comply with NFPA-20, the fire pump suction must have at least 10 pipe diameters from the pump flange to the elbow or tee. According to Section 4.16.6.3, the pipe can be horizontal or vertical.
Does the vertical pipe have to be at a 90-degree angle, or will a 45-degree angle be acceptable because that's the only way it can be installed? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Thank you to our top contributors for rounding out the unofficial end of summer! We can't thank you enough for the great discussions. Here are our top contributors for August:
We're designing a small footprint high rise with 2 stairs/standpipes, and 3" drains in the stairs for floor control valve drains and testing/verifying hose valves.
Primary water is supplied from a vertical turbine pump and tank. Local codes don’t allow direct outdoor drains so it’s either into the tank or into large hub drains. Owner is very ‘green’ and looking for ways to reduce water usage. We’ve already got the fire pump test flows back into the tank. We’re considering flowing the stair’s drains into a hub with a bypass into the tank -- hub for system draining, tank for PRV and flow switch testing. Is it advisable or preferable to run these stair drains back into the tank? Concerns include flowing black, stinky water into the tank and possibly adding pipe scale into the tank Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can a fitting (a 90-degree elbow) from a fire ductile iron water line be under the footing, which turns the pipe up into the Fire Pump room?
In other words, the pipe feed comes from a water tank underground, then turns up with a 90 under the building footing and the pipes through the footing. Is this acceptable? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is it mandatory for a smoke detector to be installed directly in front of a single elevator, at the center of the elevator door, for elevator recall?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a church reuse project with three apartments on the top floor and open storage on the lower/basement level.
Can I use NFPA 13R throughout? Or, do I need to base it on an NFPA 13 system with a typical 4" riser? I believe the building is Type V-B construction. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Where is the code section that states the numbers (calcs) on the supply side shall be greater than the numbers at the base of riser (system side)?
Does the code address this with a code section? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have an older class B Mercantile space that is sprinklered but not alarmed. The last tenant was a large pharmacy chain that monitored their own fire alarm or sprinkler systems. When they left they removed the alarm panel.
The tamper and flow switches are still there, as well as an exterior electronic flow bell. Does this sprinkler system require electronic monitoring? Currently they have nothing monitored. I would like it to be monitored, but need something to back me up. We adopted the 2021 I-Codes and 2015 NFPA 101 (Statewide). Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can any installers or maintainers provide insights into automatic air vents in fire sprinkler systems?
In your experience, do these vents ever leak water while operating? Trying to understand why specifications often require these vents to be piped to the exterior. Although manufacturers claim that only air is released, I’m curious if they occasionally sputter or drip water and whether this has caused maintenance issues. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a number of apartment buildings, 4-5 stories in height, with fire pumps serving the standpipes coming towards their end-of-life.
Is there a code requirement to re-evaluate the water supply when replacing a pump in a like-for-like scenario? Of course, this building has no existing fire protection records or placards to reference. Thanks! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In NFPA 101, is a solid riser and a solid tread required for an Exit Stair? See the image below that is metal tread but wouldn't have solid risers. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe  Can a fire pump room, properly built with only a fire pump and domestic water in it, have the fire pump electrical service meter in the fire pump room?
The local utility is permitting it. This specific example has it meeting reliable power, so there is no emergency feed that could be affected by the meter blowing out. If the meter goes, so does the pump power. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project that is a retail tire store. In the back, there is a Tire Storage Room with a mezzanine of open grate flooring that takes up the majority of the floor plan for the room. The top of the open grate flooring is roughly 10-ft and the top of the roof decking is about 11-ft above the mezzanine.
Tires are stored on racks on both levels. I think that CMDA sprinklers are the only real solution here because of the clearance to storage requirements. But, if we tried to use CMDA or ESFR, the owner would have little usable storage height. Can anyone think of another good solution? We have FP plans as part of the bid documents, and they specified something that won't work, so we kicked back an RFI for clarity, but we thought it would make good discussion here. What are the requirements for fire suppression for a wood-fired pizza oven in a commercial application?
Does a wood-fired pizza oven require anything special, like a Type I hood would? If it does require some level of suppression - what's commonly provided? A high-temperature sprinkler on the adjacent fire sprinkler system, a feed from domestic water, or something else? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a bunch of new houses going in. Some are along an existing street, and some are around a newly formed cul-de-sac.
How do I determine the number of hydrants, how far apart they are, and the maximum distance to any of the homes? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a multistory building with horizontal exits which require additional hose valves on each side of the door.
International Fire Code Section 905.4.1 addresses the protection of the standpipes, stating it must be equivalent to the rating required for the vertical enclosures of the building (e.g. egress stair) and the exception relieves the requirement for shaft protection of the laterals (e.g. interconnection). However, there is no relief for protection of the vertical standpipes supplying the additional hose valves. In the past, I have typically seen the additional vertical standpipe risers in the corridor wall separating the corridor from the units (1 hour) and fire stopped at the floor penetrations. However, according to this code section a 2-hour shaft is required. Is there some relief of the 2-hour shaft requirement for additional standpipes outside of the stair enclosure? If so, can you please guide me to the code reference? If the shaft enclosure is required, would it also apply to the 2-1/2" feed serving the valve on the opposite side of the horizontal exit door? I appreciate the insight. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can you have two fire sprinkler systems in one area?
A place is looking to charge a fleet of electric vans in an enclosed parking structure. The building already has a wet system designed for Ordinary Hazard Group 2. They want to put in a 16-zone extra-hazard (group 2) deluge system to work alongside the existing wet system. Has anyone heard of this before? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Hi, I am a Fire Alarm system installer and have been active for 25 years.
I am writing today because the change from the UBC to the IBC, or some other change that I am unaware of, has removed the requirements to do anything in an existing un sprinklered building in Washington state. Looking at the requirements for E occupancy, specifically for a sprinklered building, it says to install heat detectors in most locations. There is no guidance for what to do in an existing non-sprinklered building. This has led some to remove smoke detectors from projects and install only heat detectors other than the one for the panel and power supplies, treating sprinklered buildings and non-sprinklered buildings the same. I am alarmed by this and think it’s a mistake we will regret. On a sprinklered building, you have suppression, so the fire will likely be in a controllable state when first responders arrive. It makes sense that early warning would be redundant, other than areas like exit pathways or sleeping areas where someone could be overcome with smoke or the exit path may be blocked. Early warning devices are necessary in those cases. If we get the people out safely, then the firemen don’t need to go in. Early warning devices achieve that. But on a non-sprinklered building there is no suppression. Heat detectors do not go into alarm until the fire reaches them, they are mounted on the ceiling so the walls and building will be on fire before they activate. Smoke detectors will go off when the fire is smoldering getting the first responders on the way before the building is on fire. Oh, and getting the people out of the building before it’s on fire, one of my personal favorites. My goals, 1. I wanted to add some beam smoke detectors over the gym floor area and some smoke detectors over the stage due to the large amounts of fabric. 2. I intended on replacing all the devices on the permitted installation with like for like. Resulting in smoke detectors in the areas that currently have smoke detectors. Both of my submittals (to the architect) showing smoke detectors were rejected and I was instructed to show heat detectors. I have no way to argue for the smoke detectors, there is no guidance I can find. We are removing all the life safety out of the life safety systems. Is there something I am missing, is there a way I can fight to get smoke detection in the halls and classrooms that do not have an exit doors? I looked at the 2021 IFC chapter 11, specifically 1103. I hoped I had found my solution but reading it more carefully, I see the intent of that statement is the table. I can’t find anything on that table that will keep the early warming detection in the life safety system. I know the goal is to reduce false alarms. Smoke detectors have a bad reputation for unwanted alarms. On this project they were suffering from false alarms. That is the reason they are wanting to eliminate smoke detectors. With in a half hour of being on site the existing system went into alarm. I viewed the point, found out it was a 135 fixed temp heat installed in an attic that was at 150. So Heat detectors false alarm as well when incorrectly applied to the environment or poorly maintained. Are we going to regret this or am i just an old man with old ways of doing things? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is there a preferred method of protecting a room with the sole purpose of storing oxygen cylinders?
FM-200, NOVEC, IG, water mist? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe If I have a fire tap that services multiple buildings, is it required to have a service valve outside the building on each line?
Does each building need to be capable of being isolated in case of service needs without interrupting others? As it is, if one building needs work done to the #1 valve on the backflow then the other buildings will have to lose water during repair. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are providing sprinkler protecting inside a spray/paint booth and its associated exhaust ducts.
The question we have is if the sprinkler(s) inside the exhaust duct require the same protective covering as the heads inside the booth below. Thank you in advance for your input. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe MeyerFire has a great thrust block calculator that appears to match NFPA 13’s annex/appendix exactly. https://www.meyerfire.com/blog/a-new-thrust-block-calculator-part-i How can the thrust block volume fit within the dimensions of the thrust block? The default entries, for example, give a thrust block volume of 57.8 ft³ (NFPA 13 Equation A.6.6.1c), a base height of 2.2 ft, and a base width of 4.27 ft. This meets the bearing area required by the equations. NFPA 13, Figure A.6.6.1(b) gives the angle between the base of the thrust block and the pipe as 45°. This makes the thrust block a pyramid shape but ends with a pipe instead of coming to a tip. The Figure shows both vertical and horizontal angles as 45°, but that wouldn’t work unless the height and width are equal. If 45° is the minimum angle, then the width of 4.27 ft would control the distance from the base of the pyramid to the pipe. If each side has a 45° angle, this distance would be half the width or 2.135 ft. These dimensions can be used with the pyramid volume formula to give another method to check the thrust block volume. The pyramid formula is V = L*W*H/3, which gives a volume of 6.7 ft³. This is very different from the NFPA equation result. Even if the thrust block was poured as a cube, its volume would be V = L*W*H, which is 20 ft³ -- still much smaller than the NFPA value. – I am counting the tip of the pyramid, which is part of the pipe, not the thrust block. It would be more accurate to exclude the tip, lowering the required volume slightly, but it would be harder to calculate. If the pyramid were 57.8 ft³ with a bearing area of 2.2 ft by 4.27 ft, then it would need a distance from the pipe of 18 feet. I think there is something wrong with Equation A.6.6.1c in NFPA 13. It doesn’t make sense that it cancels the thrust force with the weight of the fill material. If you could use some incredibly dense fill material (pretend fantasy fill that is 8670 lb/ft³), then the thrust block volume would be 1 ft³ by that formula, but how is that small thrust block volume going to transfer the thrust forces onto a large enough soil surface?  The weight of the thrust block material should not be related to calculating the volume of fill material required.
Another issue I see with the equation is that it is suddenly using T = P*A*sin(theta) while all previous formulas were using T = P*A*sin(theta/2). Why did the angle change for this formula? Thanks in advance for any insight you could shed on the difference in volume versus shape with the NFPA formulas. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am working on a design for a wet sprinkler system in an industrial oven. This oven has steel mandrils with fiberglass strands coated in epoxy rolled through them, heated to 350 degrees. Then, they are rolled through another machine that blows ambient-temperature air onto the mandrils to cool them down. This process forms fiberglass/epoxy-reinforced conduits. There are (3) total exhaust ducts, one penetrating the roof and two extending 5'-0" above the top of the machine and into the open building. No dipping, flow coating, or spraying happens in this machine. Strictly heating and cooling. I am guided by NFPA 13's rules on ducts, but I don't believe NFPA 33's design criteria would apply here. I am also guided to NFPA 13 2022 9.3.8 and A9.3.8, but I am unclear on whether 15 psi is required at each head based on the wording. My thinking is that a 0.2 over the whole oven would be the design criteria, protecting the hazard (OH2) in a non-FM building.  What would your design criteria for this be?
Would you calculate the heads in the exhaust ducts? Would you put heads in the exhaust ducts that don't extend through the roof or say they're protected by the overhead system? I have my thoughts, but a lot is left up to interpretation. Thank you for any information. P.S. in the attached file, (2) ducts that don't extend through the roof are shown as actually extending through the roof. There is a revision drawing I am waiting on. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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