Does NFPA 13 address the ability to size sprinkler pipe simply by being "sized by similarity"?
For instance, I have a small room that has (4) 1/2" pendent sprinklers to be located in it. I cannot determine any pipe routing from above due to an old ceiling but can verify the lines are 1-1/2" schedule 40. I've heard of this method being used but do not find it in NFPA 13 so I'm hesitant to use this method. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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Is there a room volume cut off that you use for clean agent space to make sure that your system will pass the room integrity fan test?
As an extreme example, a 50,000 sf space would probably be better for something like a double interlock preaction system since it would be difficult to make sure that the space is of tight enough construction to hold the clean agent (there will inherently be some leaks in construction despite doing all the recommended practices of gasketing, door threshold blocking, etc). Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe For a project that has seismic expansions and the fire sprinkler piping is predominately CPVC, are seismic loops or assemblies still required?
If so, is there are preferred installation method? Would we need to transition to steel, then back to CPVC, in order to install a Metraflex or similar product? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an ESFR project with Obstructed Construction and want to be sure we're locating the height of the sprinkler 100% correct. This is an FM-Global project.
We are using K14 ESFR uprights. The bays are 25-ft x 25-ft boxed with W27 beams and contain small bays with W18 beams that are 6'-3" in-between. As far as I can tell, the sprinkler height is compliant as long as the center of the operating element does not exceed 6-inches below the W18 beams, to a maximum of 22-inches below the deck. So 4-inches maximum below the W18 beams is the target. We're using Table 8 in FM Data Sheet 8-9 for the design criteria. Is this approach correct? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe NFPA 13, 2022 Edition, Sections 28.2.4.2.4 says to that a design area can be only the sprinklers within the available design area whenever the available floor area is less than the density/area size.
The next section, Section 28.2.4.2.5, says that when the total flow is less than the density x minimum design area, an additional flow (phantom flow) shall be added at the common point of connection. When do you apply one versus the other? If I am interpreting this correctly, you only apply the 28.2.4.2.5 when you have the available floor area, but not the minimum flow? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a passenger elevator that is a traction, machine room-less (MRL).
Under NFPA 13, 2013 Edition, Section 8.15.5.2, a 'sprinkler shall not be required for enclosed, non-combustible elevator shafts that do not contain combustible hydraulic fluids.' NFPA 72, 2013 Edition, Section 21.3.6 states that 'smoke detectors shall not be installed in unsprinklered hoistways unless they are installed to activate the elevator hoistway smoke relief equipment.' I believe these would apply to this elevator. Does the elevator only require lobby smoke detectors, including first floor for recall and second floor for alternate recall? Is a smoke detector actually required within the shaft? This is my first MRL elevator and I want to make sure we cover everything that's required. I would appreciate you views on this, thank you! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe For the acceptance testing of a dry pipe sprinkler system, is a 24-hour 40 psi pneumatic test required, or will the 200 psi hydrostatic test alone suffice?
Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe An overhead door manufacturer was cited a violation from the local AHJ stating that the Storage exceeded 12-ft. The building in question has two warehouses protected by the same wet system. One side of the warehouse has an approximately 30-ft high ceiling, and the other side is approximately 20-ft high. The lower side stores doors up to 12-ft in height, on pallets or dunnage in cardboard with strapped packaging. Most of this is straight off the flow without any racking. On small racking unit along the wall with a mixture of cardboard boxes. The higher ceiling has a few cantilever style racks with overhead doors wrapped in either plastic or cardboard while being strapped. It also has a single-row rack with boxes on conventional pallets. The bottom row has plastic pallets. The existing system is currently designed for Ordinary Hazard Group 2. What classification should this storage fall under? Is OH2 appropriate given the heights and contents? Are there further evaluations that would need to be had to arrive at the hazard classification for this? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We're working on a building that is an old 2-story storage steel building that was fitted with an ill-installed K14 ESFR system. It neglected roof construction, obstructions, and distance from the roof some 20-years ago. A new owner has removed floor separations, understands that the sprinkler installation must be renewed, but has based the renewal on the possibility of continuing the use of ESFR here. Due to the roof construction in two large (open but not connected) building sections with about 500 sprinklers each, there are some problems for 5-10% of the sprinklers in these areas. Half of them will have problems with obstructions or distance from the roof and will be "doubled-up" less than 2-ft from a dividing baffle. For the other half there may be a solution based on lowering these (shown below); light gray are trusses with a slight riser at the upper belt. Green is a part of the horizontal wind bracing crossing H-beams. Red are sprinkler pipes. The lowered ESFR K25 will have the mid-point of the glass bulb within the maximum allowed distance from the roof (that have a maximum height of 34-ft from the floor).
Is this an acceptable solution for a small number of sprinklers (one here, one there) in a larger section? Is there an issue with some of the sprinklers being at the lower limit, while others are higher in elevation? We can't get rid of the wind bracing, so will the water demand still be based on 12 activated sprinklers even if they're closer together? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can a hydrant flow test (for the purposes of a fire sprinkler design) be conducted using a single hydrant?
If so, how is this actually done? Is it recommended? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a 4-story building with Levels 2 through 4 being residential. The first floor is retail and amenities. The 4th floor has vaulted ceilings and is essentially open as a gabled roof deck.
The plan was to use CPVC for all residential floors, and at the top floor to run pipe level and extend sprigs up to catch the peak and higher roof areas. Is this acceptable? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is it worth installing a nitrogen generator for small residential dry pipe systems with less than 50 gallons?
We have about 175 homes with dry pipe systems in our jurisdiction. Would a nitrogen generator be the best solution for corrosion protection? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A fire department connection can be used with a bypass to facilitate a forward flow test of the backflow preventer as described in NFPA 25 Annex A.
Is there anything prohibiting the FDC from being used as a drain outlet, as well? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are building a church under the 2018 IBC. It's an A-3 occupancy. We're trying to figure out if we really need a fire suppression system in the whole building and if there are any alternatives given the exorbitant costs to cover the whole building.
Based on my research the only two things that would necessitate a system is the fact that we have a choir loft up a flight of stairs with no fire escape (except the staircase) and the main body of the chapel could possibly fit about 300 people. We were wondering if we could just cover the fire areas without covering the whole building? We've gotten differing answers from both the county and fire marshal. I contacted the state department for a final verdict but I could really use some expertise input. Our pastor is concerned that we may be getting upsold into a product that we may not need, especially since they wanted sprinklers in an inaccessible crawl space. Thanks for all the help, this site has been extremely helpful. Do let me know if there are any viable alternatives and any other way to help on costs. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Question submitted from Joe Meyer as pertains to a whitepaper in the works for ESFR systems:
Many of us have come to the realization that with ESFR systems, the "building is designed around the sprinkler." That adage seems to be more and more true with each ESFR system. What advice would you offer to architects and structural engineers on the "best ways" to design around ESFR; making the building more ESFR-friendly? Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a 4-story apartment building with commercial units on the first floor, residential on all floors above.
The architect is providing a 2-hour separation at the 2nd floor deck (concrete on a metal deck), and is requesting NFPA 13 for the 1st floor and NFPA 13R for the units above. The AHJ came back and requested NFPA 13 for the corridors and elevator lobbies on floors 2-4 to avoid separation of elevator lobbies from corridors, but still keep the draft/smoke control doors at the hoistways. Can NFPA 13 and 13R be mixed on the upper levels? Is this approach valid from a code-standpoint? Is there validation or different approaches that would need to take place to make this happen? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project design for a single room (26'-0" x 14'-6", height of 13'-2"). The room is noncombustible and is solely for the storage of one large metal diesel fuel storage tank in the basement of a hospital. The tank is under 8-ft tall. I have researched NFPA 13, 16, and NFPA 30. I used the tables for sprinkler type and criteria.
My confusion is the amount of storage and the size of the tank. The tables in NFPA 30, starting with Chapter 16.5.2.1, have guidelines for tank sizes up to 60 gallons only. This is a much larger, metal, stationary tank (3,000 gallons). What table or design criteria can be used? K-factors of 8.0 or 11.2 - and 0.30 or 0.40 density? We will be using foam for this project and I just want to be sure that I'm approaching and educating myself for the correct approach without missing or violating limitations within NFPA 30 (or the other standards). Thanks for the help! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are doing a design for high-piled storage of Class I-IV commodities in a palletized arrangement. Storage is 15'-6" high. Would this storage (image below) also count/qualify as "encapsulated" under NFPA 13 (2013 Edition)? The client is a remediation company that uses heavy plywood crates to temporarily store items for their clients (which are common household items).
Section 3.9.1.12 includes "a combustible package" as a method of encapsulation, but annex A.3.9.1.12 says "The term encapsulated does not apply to plastic-enclosed products or packages inside a large, non-plastic, enclosed container.". Does a heavy plywood crate count as encapsulation, or not? This matters because at 15.5 feet in height I would have to use the flow densities from 14.2.5 instead of the reduced ones from 14.2.4 if it does. Thanks very much for your help. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I had a discussion with other peers about the hazard classification of nail salons (not a hair salon in this case).
Peer 1 argued for OH2. It's semi-mercantile, typically behind the front desk they sell beauty care products of moderate flammability. Peer 2 argued for OH1. It's not mercantile like we're used to; it's not aisles, it's a couple of cabinets by a front desk in the majority of cases. But the chemical storage in those beauty products to him says he can't go all the way light hazard even with mostly open floor space. Peer 3 argued for Light Hazard. This is no different from a doctor's office. They have cabinetry, they have equipment, they have flammable chemicals (alcohol at the very least). Plus he'd really like to be able to use CPVC pipe for the light hazard occupancy to save money. I see the argument for all three, so I figured I'd offer it to more peers. See where folks land on this. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are the requirements for sprinklers in an 'Extraction Booth' the same as a 'spray booth'?
I have a customer looking to add wet pipe coverage to their new 'solvent extraction booth' which appears to be the same as a paint spray booth. The customer is claiming that the AHJ told them that there is no requirement for a separate riser as it's not technically a paint booth. I can't find any supporting documentation of this in any NFPA standard. The closest example I can find is a paint spray booth which appears to require a dedicated riser no matter what. Anybody have any experience with this? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an NFPA 13R (2019), 4-story apartment. It's Group R-2, Class V-A construction, with open interior breezeways hallways in "garden style". Combined, all floor levels are ~60,000 sqft (~15,000 sqft per floor).
The design includes one 320 sqft storage room and about four 55 sqft storage closets in the interior breezeway per floor that tenants can rent if they choose. All storage rooms and closets have gypsum ceilings. From what I can tell, NFPA 13R-2019 doesn't really address storage like this, so I'd assume to revert back to NFPA 13 in order to protect? Is that a correct approach? Due to the combustible construction - would that trigger coverage above and below ceilings in these spaces? And then - am I permitted to tie into an NFPA 13R system, or would this even need a separate riser? We could have two scenarios - one with rooms 2-hour fire resistance rated from the R-2, and another where it's incidental and not separated. Thanks in advance for your input. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can an auxiliary drain for a dry system be mounted on the side of pipe?
We've debated it recently after finding a situation where the auxiliary drains were mounted on the side of the pipe. I've been unable to find proper documentation concerning the orientation for the auxiliary drain. I did find the 5-gallon rule for wet systems, however, I was unable to find a specific reference for a dry system. Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How do you calculate a flow and pressure rate from a gravity tank and a pressure tank?
Is there a requirement for periodic testing of flows from these devices similar to that of a fire hydrant? In some instances, high rise buildings in NYC have just a gravity or a pressure tank for the water supply and I am trying to figure out out to measure what type of flow and pressure is available when these are considered a primary water supply for their sprinkler system. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are working on an ESFR system installed in a pre-engineered metal building.
Can the main frame rafters be considered walls when it comes to spacing of sprinklers? Can sprinklers be spaced 2-5 feet on either side of the rafters of a pre-enginered building? The depth of rafter is 30-inches, sprinkler deflector is installed at 14-inches. I believe I can use the rafters as walls or baffles, but had a contractor comment the opposite. We're using the 2013 edition of NFPA 13 for reference. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does sprinkler protection beneath an open grated mezzanine change the ceiling level sprinkler design density?
e have a building with a storage room with a grated mezzanine at 8' AFF. Beneath the mezzanine is Class I-IV storage on shelves to the bottom of the mezzanine and on top of the mezzanine is similar storage to 10' high. NFPA 13 requires sprinkler protection for open grating over 4' in width but there is no indication on if this affects the ceiling sprinkler design as it might for in-rack sprinklers. My feeling is the system would have to be designed as if it was ~18' high storage with heads under the mezzanine that match that density, but I am not sure if this is correct or if there would be a benefit to covering the grating entirely and possibly considering it storage under 12' below and above. Thanks in advance for your take. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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