MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • JOIN
    • CATALOG
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
    • [THE ALL-NEW SITE]
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • OUR CAUSE
    • ABOUT MEYERFIRE
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT
Picture

ESFR Advice for Architects + Structural Engineers?

11/14/2023

14 Comments

 
Question submitted from Joe Meyer as pertains to a whitepaper in the works for ESFR systems:

Many of us have come to the realization that with ESFR systems, the "building is designed around the sprinkler." That adage seems to be more and more true with each ESFR system.

What advice would you offer to architects and structural engineers on the "best ways" to design around ESFR; making the building more ESFR-friendly?

​Thanks in advance!

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
14 Comments
Dan Wilder
11/14/2023 07:04:13 am

Of the top of my head....

Open web trusses - 8' on center
Provide an allowance for the first to third truss on each side of the warehouse for a heavier load (mains to avoid trapeze)
Allow adjustment for any roof penetrations and horizontal MEP trades to be centered between branch lines/sprinklers
When using BAF, prepare to have those locations adjustable as well

Reply
Pete H
11/14/2023 07:12:47 am

Advice for NFPA 13 design only, not FM:

24'-0" bays are ideal in buildings under 30 feet.

30'-0" bays are ideal in buildings over 30 feet.

Expect to be able to hang large sprinkler feed mains (6-8 inch) as well as floater mains and have a gridded branch line system.

Heat the place, I can't do a grid on a dry system.

Open ceilings are better.

I need 36" clear from deflector to top of storage. And to expect my deflector 6-12 inches below deck. (yeah, it's more specific based on upright or pendent, but these numbers work for both). So ideally have storage cease 4'-0" below deck.

Expect a pump if your storage is high enough.

Avoid group a plastics in buildings over 40'-0" for deck height, as those are likely to still require in-racks.

Reply
Pete H
11/14/2023 08:02:34 am

Oh and no ceilings with a slope greater than 2 in 12. Flat ceilings as much as possible.

Reply
Michelle L
11/14/2023 08:35:39 am

If a fire pump is necessary, provide a large enough room for it and all required equipment. I ask for 20 x 20, though I understand that's not always possible.

Reply
Pete D
11/14/2023 08:52:00 am

A couple of things come to mind. 1st. The architect must be cognizant that his warehouse TOS dimension is limited in height, if he wants to design a building protected by ESFR. There are some specially listed sprinklers that raise the roof (so to speak), but outside of those raised limits the only other options are to protect with a different strategy or install a ceiling.
It's important to let the architect know on the front end that the MEP design is contingent on the ESFR layout. Just the head spot and mains, not the completed shop drawings. In this regard either the FPE with need to provide a preliminary head spot, or the sprinkler contractor will need a design-build contract negotiated. I use a drawing detail that depicts both NFPA ESFR spacing off obstructions and the grouped obstruction rules from FM. Layout technician requires a steel erection plan with details of the girders to pick a pass-through point (elevation and off column) for feed and float mains. If they deviate from the plan, the will need to pay for 4 90s to offset beneath the girders at each intersection. Make the pump room big enough for a fire pump. Ask the FPE how much space is needed. If the site includes back-up generator power, coordinate a back-up circuit for the jockey pump. Obtain power reliability statistics from the purveyor.

Reply
Jesse
11/14/2023 09:43:23 am

Great post Joe!

I'd say, we need:

1) open web trusses.
2) Keep the roof flat. Don't exceed 2:12
3) Give me a big enough room for my pump and all of the risers!
4) Make sure you have 3-Ph electrical for the pump
5) Depending on the applicable version of 13, avoid expanded Group A
6) Let me know now the extent of HVLS fans

Reply
Casey Milhorn
11/14/2023 09:50:39 am

All great comments. There is a lot going on right now around the K28 heads from Reliable and the K34 from Tyco. They have some very specialized listings that will allow for higher buildings/storage, tighter aisles, tighter flue spaces, that all could be very very attractive to the end user and maximize their storage space. This is HUGE to them. Design the building around the tenant's needs, but incorporate a specific ESFR head up front.

Involve a design build fire protection contractor day 1 if possible.

Find out if there is a specific insurance carrier involved day 1. FM Global, etc.

Get a NFPA 13 owners certificate filled out from the building owner, and tenant if applicable, day 1.

As Dan said, either 5' on center or 8' on center. Avoid weird joist spacing, and/or inconsistent spacing. Avoid structural bracing when possible.

Reply
Brian Cockburn
11/14/2023 09:55:10 am

Make sure seismic requirements are thought through if you're in an earthquake zone. Early coordination between the Fire Protection and Structural Engineer will pay off here.

Reply
Cesar Reyna
11/14/2023 11:36:45 am

Ensure that the ceiling height/roof height based on the ESFR design criteria is closely coordinated during construction and well documented on the Architectural sections.

An ESFR design for a 30'-0" ceiling height/roof would jump up to the next design criteria if the field measurement comes out higher...

Has anyone discovered this during a construction administration visit? I had a warehouse exceed the 30'-0" height by 6" to 8" about 15-ft on either side of the peak...how did you guys handle this?

Reply
NK
11/14/2023 11:49:46 am

1) NFPA 13, 2022 §14.2.11.3.2 (1) "Where the bottom cord is 6" or less in width, the sprinkler shall be located a minimum of 6 in. horizontally from the nearest edge of the bottom chord."
2) For buildings with 30'-0 bays space bar joists every 5'-0 for 10'-0 sprinkler spacing. For buildings with 40'-0 bays space bar joists every 5'-0 for 10'-0 sprinkler spacing or 8'-0 for 8'-0 sprinkler spacing.
3) ESFR system demands change substantially when the roof heights exceed 30'-0 (especially in NFPA 13, 2022 edition)
4) Hang lights directly below bar joists since ESFR sprinklers avoid bar joists.
5) Keep HVAC under 24" wide as much as possible to avoid additional protection below.
6) Make sure roof pitch doesn't exceed 2:12
7) Space HVLS fans after sprinkler layout is determined to make sure the fans are between 4 sprinklers.
8) Make sure to flow your system demand during flow testing (or as close as possible) to make sure you don't need a supplemental water tank.
9) Don't forget to check fire flow requirements if you have fire hydrants around the building.
10) Specify the level of ESFR protection and understand what commodity classification the fire sprinkler system will be providing

Reply
Rick Rantamaki link
11/14/2023 01:03:59 pm

If possible, try to locate the water entry/fire pump room as close to the ESFR hazard as possible (or vice versa) - to minimize large pipe runs.

Reply
Anthony
11/15/2023 12:47:42 pm

Architects should not specify ESFR, only the specific hazard to be protected. they typically do because with ESFR then they do not need smoke and heat venting. Now we have multiple options for this protection scheme not just ESFR like CMSA and EC25.
they really box us in when they specify ESFR.

Reply
DE
11/16/2023 01:42:56 pm

1. Coordinate RTU locations around ESFR sprinklers
2. Solid steel reinforcement for RTUs also need to be coordinated
3. Joist fabrication should not start before sprinkler contractor has had a chance to review. Coordinate bridging locations with ESFR
4. If project is phased - any demising full height walls need to be coordinated.
5. No solid shelves! (there are some schemes around this)
6. I've had a project where lights were spec'd as 48" x 26" - not cool!
7. Explore other options like EC25s. ESFR is not a catch-all

Reply
sean
11/16/2023 06:45:12 pm

clear understanding of the proposed storage...

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    SUBMIT A QUESTION
    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    ALL-ACCESS

    Picture
    GET ALL OUR TOOLS

    SUBSCRIBE

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    COMMUNITY

    Top ​October '23 Contributors
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    YOUR POST

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    PE EXAM

    Get 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
    SIGN ME UP!

    FILTERS

    All
    A1171
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    ASTM E1354
    Blog Thread
    Daily Discussion
    Design-documents
    EN 12845
    Explosion Protection
    Explosion-protection-prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable And Combustible Liquids
    Flammable-combustible-liquids
    FM Global
    Human-behavior
    IBC
    ICC 500
    IFC
    IMC
    IPC
    IRC
    ISO
    Means Of Egress
    NBC
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 1142
    NFPA 1221
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 16
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 220
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 241
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 30B
    NFPA 33
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 409
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 495
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 55
    NFPA 654
    NFPA 68
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 701
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 75
    NFPA 770
    NFPA 82
    NFPA 855
    NFPA 90A
    NFPA 92
    NFPA 96
    NICET
    OBC
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management
    Special Hazard Systems
    UFC 3-600-01
    UFC 4-021-01
    UPC
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    ARCHIVES

    November 2023
    October 2023
    September 2023
    August 2023
    July 2023
    June 2023
    May 2023
    April 2023
    March 2023
    February 2023
    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    September 2022
    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016


    PE PREP SERIES

    Fire Protection PE Exam Prep
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    RSS Feed

Picture
​Home
Our Cause
The Blog
The Forum
PE Exam Prep
The Toolkit

MeyerFire University
​Pricing
Login
​Support
Contact Us
Picture

MeyerFire.com is a startup community built to help fire protection professionals shine.
Our goal is to improve fire protection practices worldwide. We promote the industry by creating helpful tools and resources, and by bringing together industry professionals to share their expertise.

​MeyerFire, LLC is a NICET Recognized Training Provider and International Code Council Preferred Education Provider.

All text, images, and media ​Copyright © 2023 MeyerFire, LLC

We respect your privacy and personal data. See our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. 
The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

Discussions are solely for the purpose of peer review and the exchange of ideas. All comments are reviewed. Comments which do not contribute, are not relevant, are spam, or are disrespectful in nature may be removed. Information presented and opinions expressed should not be relied upon as a replacement for consulting services. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a small commission for orders placed elsewhere.

  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • JOIN
    • CATALOG
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
    • [THE ALL-NEW SITE]
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • OUR CAUSE
    • ABOUT MEYERFIRE
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT