This project has a canopy. It canopy is not attached to the building. The building is required to have a sprinkler system installed in accordance with IBC 903.3.1.1 (an NFPA 13 system) in order to increase the allowable building area.
The canopy is providing weather protection for transit passengers. It's Type II-B, non-combustible, and made of steel, concrete, and metal panels. The canopy is also very large, and on its own exceeds the allowable area for a non-sprinklered Group A-3 occupancy. Do the provisions of NFPA 13-2016 Section 8.15.7.2 (copied below) allow for an omission of sprinklers from an exterior canopy as described here? 8.15.7.2* Sprinklers shall be permitted to be omitted where the exterior canopies, roofs, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, and similar projections are constructed with materials that are noncombustible, limited-combustible, or fire retardant–treated wood as defined in NFPA 703, or where the projections are constructed utilizing a noncombustible frame, limited combustibles, or fire retardant–treated wood with an inherently flame-resistant fabric overlay as demonstrated by Test Method 2 in accordance with NFPA 701. A.8.15.7.2 Vehicles that are temporarily parked are not considered storage. Areas located at drive-in bank windows or porte-cocheres at hotels and motels normally do not require sprinklers where there is no occupancy above, where the area is entirely constructed of noncombustible or limited combustible materials or fire retardant–treated lumber, and where the area is not the only means of egress. However, areas under exterior ceilings where the building is sprinklered should be protected due to the occupancy above. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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Have a project that is a large ESFR warehouse with many storage bays and many zoned systems. About every 150 to 200 feet is a 1-1/2 inch hose valve that is tied to the overhead system with 1-inch pipe drops.
What is the purpose for these? Where is the code basis? We may be modifying some of these areas with new work and I want to be sure we're upkeeping code, but I'm not familiar with the purpose of these hose valves. Thanks in advance. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe One of the frustrating non real-world things in consulting is that on the contracting side, 99.9% of the time we start at flange inside the building. Red-line the contract if needed, or work out an informal deal with the underground contractor.
On the consulting/engineering side we have this whole underground spec section, just for five-feet out, including tracing wire and tape, testing offsite soils, soils disposal, shoring, compaction, size of rock, etc. I understand the civil engineers will only take it to five feet. I’ve asked my people why we can't just match reality and just start inside the building? I am told if we did there is this 5-ft. gap that has to be claimed by someone (despite what is done in reality). Have you addressed this in your experience in any way? I am wondering how others deal with it. On the contracting side we all just made it happen. On the consulting/paperwork side, it’s hard to make the paperwork match reality. Do you even seen thrust block calcs submitted from anyone since it is part of the imaginary five-feet out? Sorry, ranting a bit, it came to mind again today because I have constructability comments from the architect that recognized that in this particular case, the AHJ permit covers from the flange, their solution is to have my spec cover the entire fire line. I’m not comfortable with that. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A big thank you to those who chimed in during this past month - thanks for making this a more positive and helpful community! Top Contributors for January:
When is the auto ball-drip required on the hookup (dry) side of the check valve for a Fire Department Connection?
In areas prone to freezing, there is the FDC, then a dry portion of pipe, then the check valve. If the check valve is located higher than the FDC (as is typical for our FDCs near risers), can't the connection itself drain the dry portion? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are exits in industrial occupancies required to have panic hardware if the overall number of employees is 50 or more?
This is under NFPA 101 Life Safety Code, 2018 edition. Thanks. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does anyone have any code references for the use of traffic spikes?
Does anyone allow it (with a manual override)? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I'm working on an exercise studio with one big open room and dealing with a plan examiner who insists travel distance is measured along walls leading to an exit, rather than diagonally across the space. To me this is absurd. Thoughts?
Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have an obstruction question regarding what I feel is a gray area of NFPA 13. I'm looking at obstructions greater than 18 inches below sprinklers.
NFPA 13 states that any obstruction over 4 ft wide requires sprinkler protection under the obstruction. What if you have multiple parallel obstructions that are less than 4 ft wide with gaps in between? For example, multiple 36-inch diameter parallel pipes with 6 inches of space between each pipe. I feel that even if these obstructions do not require sprinkler protection below per code, they would still significantly alter the listed spray pattern of the sprinkler. I have seen some info regarding a 50% rule, but I can only find that in code as it relates to ceiling fans. I am curious what other opinions are. Thanks! Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Working on a fire house that is fully-sprinklered, non-separated construction type V-B, wood construction, R-2, S-1 & S-2 classifications, with R-2 being the most restrictive. We have 83 total occupants. IBC 2015.
We have a full- sprinklered attic with a nitrogen generator. We have gas-fired mechanical equipment in the attic. My question is that the contractor is suggesting to VE the attic sprinkler by installing fire treated roof sheathing. IBC 903.2.8.3.2 "Attics not used for living purposes, storage or fuel-fired equipment." tells me that we are required to have them. Am I incorrect? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe When an elevator does not have an elevator machine room, where should the fire alarm relays for the elevator be located?
Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Within stairwells, how are standpipes addressed in regards to cane detection with ABA/ADA rules? Are there any special cane-detection requirements (anything special to allow a visually-impaired person to detect a vertical standpipe)?
Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does anyone have any literature on the installation of face sprinklers (the sprinkler along the first row of a rack on the "face" of the rack)?
I have an AHJ who is saying that the height of the pipes serving the face sprinklers must not meet the definition of "hindrance" or "obstruction" in the building code. The face sprinklers in my situation are placed on first row of a rack system with the face sprinklers of the upright type. (2015 NFPA-30 16.5.1.10 (6)). The sprinkler line is located parallel with the face of the rack. The bottom of the pipe is 4"-6" below the bottom of the rack. I have checked for the definition of what he mentioned and I can't find anything in the building codes. Building code is 2015 IBC/IFC. Also checked the NFPA-13 handbooks but the installation requirements are concerned with sprinkler deflector versus the piping itself. Thanks in advance! Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Do underground gate valves for fire main water supplies have to be monitored and supervised?
Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe As you might have heard by now this site is all about promoting fire protection by sharing best practices and bringing together a community of experts from different backgrounds. As part of that goal I'm happy to announce the overall Top Ten Contributors to the Daily Forum for 2019:
On behalf of MeyerFire & all of us on the forum, thank you for your valued and regular input on the forum! The great conversations here do nothing but all of us in the industry learn and grow.
Top Contributors for 2019 each have been sent a plaque (like the one shown above) as a small token of appreciation. Where exactly does a hydraulic calculation need to end?
When we run a hydrant flow test, there's a static/residual hydrant and a flow hydrant. I regularly run my hydraulic calculations from the building, through the service main, to a street main, and then up the tee'd branch that serves a hydrant so that my source point is exactly at the elevation of the static/residual hydrant. I do this so that I make sure to account for the proper elevation of the water supply. Most other hydraulic calculations I see will end wherever the building's service main intersects with the street's supply. Is this correct? Wouldn't that place the source at an elevation lower than what the hydrant indicated is available? Wondering what the proper way is that I should be precisely calculating systems. Thanks in advance. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What should I do about a sprinkler contractor who insists that rooms of dedicated Ordinary Hazard occupancy (storage, janitors, mechanical etc.) within an otherwise Light Hazard occupancy building can be protected as Light Hazard?
NFPA 13 clearly provides direction for adjacent and multiple hazard classifications. I think Chapter 5 and 11 (and common sense) are clear on this. Classroom Labs are even another matter that NFPA has addressed. Do you all run into this "it's all light hazard" belief as well? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe When sprinklers (recessed, pendant, or concealed) are installed in a ceiling, do the distances to heating ducts and steam piping listed in Table 8.3.2.5(a) of NFPA 13-13 still apply when those elements are above a ceiling?
Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a question that a architect brought up to me. He is saying that on a highrise (11 stories) it is a fire code requirement to have floor control valves on both stairwells. I cannot find anything that states this in any of the NFPA books. The square foot of each floor is small and is NOT separated into zones.
Does an 11-story high-rise require floor control valves on both stairwells? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Will you please clarify why a Building Area Increase is NOT permitted for an NFPA 13R design?
We are working on a project and the architect has stated that the calculations following IBC T506.2 allow for an area increase up to 135,000 sf. We are working in IBC 2015. The Owner would like confirmation that the 4 story R-2 Type V-A building can be protected under NFPA 13R when it is over 12,000 sf. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I could use some help with sprinkler obstructions.
Generally, I’m looking at piping and ductwork, that is installed within 18” below the plane of the standard upright sprinkler deflector. Light or ordinary occupancies. I called NFPA 13 and got an interpretation that these would be considered a sprinkler obstruction, and I would need sprinklers on either side, regardless of the size of the duct/pipe (no rule here about only being over 4’). This was per Section 10.2.7.2 in the 2019 edition. I didn’t think to ask, but could I still apply the three times rule of 10.2.7.2.1.3, even though these aren’t structural members? As long as I was three times, or 24-inches away, it wouldn’t be an obstruction, right? I’ve seen these close configurations all over the place in many different peoples’ designs, so I’m wondering if I’m missing some allowance. Most recently, I observed a 14” wide (horizontally) x 6” deep duct (vertically), with a sprinkler installed directly above with the deflector 5” above the top of the duct. The next sprinkler head is approximately 12 feet away. Also observed in the same room, was a 5” diameter pipe about 8” diagonally down from a deflector, measured at a 45-degree angle. If I’m understanding NFPA 13 correctly, these would both be considered obstructed. I have a question into NFPA 13, but would appreciate others’ opinions as well. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe NFPA 20, 4.12.6 "Ventilation. Provision shall be made for ventilation of a pump room or pump house."
DIESEL FIRE PUMPS - These rooms require a lot more air for combustion air and heat removal. This is usually done in generator and boiler rooms with separate fan-forced intake air and exhaust ducts to the outside. In the case of a fire pump, fireproofing these ducts through the building offer additional "protection" under NFPA 20, 4.12.1 in the event of a fire. Diesel data sheets show the amount of CFM required for the various engines. In addition, the extra distance for the exhaust pipe lengths to the outside needs to be considered. Some of the engine manufacturers have calculators on their websites for VENTILATION, COOLING LOOP and EXHAUST PIPING. PUMP ROOM TEMPERATURE LIMITS - Most microprocessor controllers are limited to 120 deg. F. A small non-vented pump room, especially on a west wall, could easily exceed that with a motor running under load on a hot 100+ degree day. My question? This site/facility does not have an emergency backup generator. Do we need a backup generator to power the exhaust fan and/or the unit heater? In the event of power loss during winter… a room temp sensor would send supervisory alarm company for an owner response. Also, please confirm the Jockey pump does not require backup power. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I would appreciate some feedback on using quick response sprinklers in a dry system. I have found no reference in NFPA 13 indicating specifically if QR Uprights can or can not be used. Therefore, I assume that they are acceptable providing it is a light or ordinary hazard classification.
I have researched and found varying opinions. I believe fire testing shows that the use of QR sprinklers in dry systems can help decrease fluid delivery time. However, with more sprinklers operating before the water arrives to control the fire, some argue that there is increased system demand. I agree with both scenarios, however, I don't believe the amount of sprinklers operating would exceed the design area of a properly calculated system. I would love to hear some different opinions on the subject. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe For straight pipe couplings, are thrust blocks required, or is it only at any change of direction in the piping? It seems as though restrained joints seem to be common now, but the question came up when using thrust blocks instead of the restrained joints.
Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I occasionally am the one to choose which dry valve make and model we use for our installation projects. If you're a specifying engineer/designer or on the contractor side of things, what criteria do you consider when you choose when deciding which dry valve model to use?
Obviously the calculations have to accomodate the pressure loss, but that mostly impacts size. What other factors do you consider when making the decision? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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