Ever Break Design at Flange Instead of 5-ft Out?

2/3/2020

One of the frustrating non real-world things in consulting is that on the contracting side, 99.9% of the time we start at flange inside the building. Red-line the contract if needed, or work out an informal deal with the underground contractor.

On the consulting/engineering side we have this whole underground spec section, just for five-feet out, including tracing wire and tape, testing offsite soils, soils disposal, shoring, compaction, size of rock, etc. I understand the civil engineers will only take it to five feet.

I’ve asked my people why we can't just match reality and just start inside the building? I am told if we did there is this 5-ft. gap that has to be claimed by someone (despite what is done in reality).

Have you addressed this in your experience in any way? I am wondering how others deal with it. On the contracting side we all just made it happen. On the consulting/paperwork side, it’s hard to make the paperwork match reality. Do you even seen thrust block calcs submitted from anyone since it is part of the imaginary five-feet out?

Sorry, ranting a bit, it came to mind again today because I have constructability comments from the architect that recognized that in this particular case, the AHJ permit covers from the flange, their solution is to have my spec cover the entire fire line. I’m not comfortable with that.

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5 Comments

Joe Martinez

2/3/2020 10:14:29 am

I have always heard through out my 20 year career about "5 foot out." I am a contractor in Florida and have heard this in Florida. In Florida a fire protection (sprinkler) contractor begins at the point of service which is defined in Florida statute as where the piping is exclusively used for fire protection. In most circumstances that is the tap of the water main, however sometimes it can be argued it is the backflow preventer by the water utility department. However, I have heard from other contractors about this "5 foot out" and I have never seen any legal basis for it? Is it a thing in other states?

In Florida it is actually against state statute to take ownership for the underground contractor's work. Which is always an interesting conversation when the GC hires a utility contractor who does not have an underground contrator's license to install the u/g fire main and then they ask the sprinkler contractor to own the responsibility.

Florida Statute 633.334
(3) For contracts written after June 30, 2005, the contractor who installs the underground piping from the point of service is responsible for completing the installation to the aboveground connection flange, which by definition in this chapter is no more than 1 foot above the finished floor, before completing the Contractor’s Material and Test Certificate for Underground Piping document. Aboveground contractors may not complete the Contractor’s Material and Test Certificate for Underground Piping document for underground piping or portions thereof which have been installed by others.

BRIAN CRAWFORD

2/3/2020 10:33:11 am

North Carolina actually has legislation that requires the utility contractor to bring the fire service into the building......

GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NORTH CAROLINA SESSION 1999

SESSION LAW 1999-123
HOUSE BILL 1076

AN ACT TO REQUIRE THAT FIRE SERVICE MAINS COMPLY WITH THE NORTH CAROLINA STATE BUILDING CODE.

Section 1. G.S. 87-10(b) reads as rewritten:
"(b) The Board shall conduct an examination, either oral or written, of all applicants for license to ascertain the ability of the applicant to make a practical application of his knowledge of the profession of contracting, under the classification contained in the application, and to ascertain the qualifications of the applicant in reading plans and specifications, knowledge of estimating costs, construction, ethics and other similar matters pertaining to the contracting business and knowledge of the applicant as to the responsibilities of a contractor to the public and of the requirements of the laws of the State of North Carolina relating to contractors, construction and liens. If the results of the examination of the applicant shall be satisfactory to the Board, then the Board shall issue to the applicant a certificate to engage as a general contractor in the State of North Carolina, as provided in said certificate, which may be limited into five classifications as the common use of the terms are known – that is,
(1) Building contractor, which shall include private, public, commercial, industrial and residential buildings of all types;
(1a) Residential contractor, which shall include any general contractor constructing only residences which are required to conform to the residential building code adopted by the Building Code Council pursuant to G.S. 143-138;
(2) Highway contractor;
(3) Public utilities contractors, which shall include those whose operations are the performance of construction work on the following subclassifications of facilities:
a. Water and sewer mains and water service lines and house and building sewer lines as defined in the North Carolina State Building Code, and water storage tanks, lift stations, pumping stations, and appurtenances to water storage tanks, lift stations and pumping stations;
b. Water and wastewater treatment facilities and appurtenances thereto;
c. Electrical power transmission facilities, and primary and secondary distribution facilities ahead of the point of delivery of electric service to the customer;
d. Public communication distribution facilities; and
e. Natural gas and other petroleum products distribution facilities; provided the General Contractors Licensing Board may issue license to a public utilities contractor limited to any of the above subclassifications for which the general contractor qualifies, and
(4) Specialty contractor, which shall include those whose operations as such are the performance of construction work requiring special skill and involving the use of specialized building trades or crafts, but which shall not include any operations now or hereafter under the jurisdiction, for the issuance of license, by any board or commission pursuant to the laws of the State of North Carolina.
Public utilities contractors constructing water service lines and house and building sewer lines as provided in (3)a above shall terminate said lines at a valve, box, meter, or manhole or cleanout at which the facilities from the building may be connected. Public utilities contractors constructing fire service mains for connection to fire sprinkler systems shall terminate those lines at a flange, cap, plug, or valve inside the building one foot above the finished floor. All fire service mains shall comply with the NFPA standards for fire service mains as incorporated into and made applicable by Volume V of the North Carolina Building Code."
Section 2. This act becomes effective October 1, 1999.
In the General Assembly read three times and ratified this the 20th day of
May, 1999.

s/ Marc Basnight
President Pro Tempore of the Senate

s/ James B. Black
Speaker of the House of Representatives

s/ James B. Hunt, Jr. Governor

Approved 3:32 p.m. this 28th day of May, 1999

Page 2 S.L. 1999-123 House Bill 1076

Pete D

2/3/2020 07:19:46 pm

I know the 5 ft out rule is typically used if your firm got the overhead and spigots but not the underground. It's the lead-in portion that's typically ductile or an ames (one piece stainless) despite the rest of the UG being PVC. It's the same as saying I will be responsible for the 90 below the spigot, but nothing else. GC's get joe bob plumber to do the UG for less l, and then want to blame the sprinkler contractor for a blowout. 5 ft is the line in the sand, beyond which you're not responsible. It also so happens that you can't dig out beneath a footing without excavating 5 feet from the wall. After 5 ft. we "leave it in your capable plumbing hands." Texas also requires a sprinkler sub to do the fire loop FYI.

Dave

2/3/2020 08:28:07 pm

That’s interesting feedback. For comparison, several years ago the Washington State Legislature passed regulatory codes that included licensing requirements for sprinkler contractors, sprinkler designers, and sprinkler fitters.
Washington Administrative Code (WAC): https://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=212-80
While not perfect in its clarity, it does dictate who may design the dedicated fire sprinkler underground work (both above-ground and overhead), with a professional engineer registered in the State of Washington being exempt from these specific licensing requirements. So (n short), a Level 2 or 3 Design Certificate (out of a total of three levels) is required to design the fire sprinkler underground. A State-licensed Level 2 or 3 sprinkler contractor may install the fire protection underground, as may a contractor such as a utility contractor who has obtained the State “Level U” certification for underground.
But I share the original posters frustration and questions about the commonly-referenced “five feet out” demarcation, I’m not sure if it originates from AIA contract templates or what. I’m curious how the Civil Engineer counterparts designing the underground look at it. Because in real life (I see Pete just chimed in with a reply) I've rarely use this imaginary demarcation during installation. Unless for example, we had to get it installed prior to the UG contractor bringing water to the building.

Mike

2/4/2020 03:18:59 am

Utilities contractors often trench and lay pipe prior or during the pad pour. They couldnt hit the broadside of a barn. All my contracts specify work starts at top of flange inside the building. I let the other fight about it.

If you are smart, design flexibility in the overhead system to allow for a deviation. Never go straight from the anticipated entry point. A trapeze will be worth it's weight in gold.

Ever Break Design at Flange Instead of 5-ft Out?

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