MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • JOIN
    • CATALOG
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
    • [THE ALL-NEW SITE]
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • OUR CAUSE
    • ABOUT MEYERFIRE
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT
Picture

Measure Egress Diagonally Across Open Room?

1/28/2020

16 Comments

 
I'm working on an exercise studio with one big open room and dealing with a plan examiner who insists travel distance is measured along walls leading to an exit, rather than diagonally across the space. To me this is absurd. Thoughts?

​​​Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
16 Comments
Wayne Ammons
1/28/2020 08:34:52 am

Not a life safety expert but thought I would take a quick stab at this. Below is from NFPA 101, 2015 Edition:

7.6* Measurement of Travel Distance to Exits.
7.6.1* The travel distance to an exit shall be measured on the floor or other walking surface as follows:
(1) Along the centerline of the natural path of travel, starting from the most remote point subject to occupancy
(2) Curving around any corners or obstructions, with a 12 in. (305 mm) clearance therefrom
(3) Terminating at one of the following:
(a) Center of the doorway
(b) Other point at which the exit begins
(c) Smoke barrier in an existing detention and correctional occupancy as provided in Chapter 23


If the room is intended to be wide open with no obstructions from any given point to the nearest exit, I do not see why a diagonal route would not be acceptable since, IMHO, that would be my natural path of travel during an emergency situation. If there intends to be any exercise equipment or other obstructions in the room then you would have to take that in to consideration when determining egress routes.

Reply
Laura
1/28/2020 10:27:24 am

My concern with allowing diagonal measurement for the room is the change of use within the space can lead to issues down the road. As much as it makes sense in this case to allow a diagonal measurement, the future use of the space may change and the shorter distance will no longer be available. Since travel distance and layout of the building stay with the life of the building, avoiding issues in the future is very important to me as an AHJ.
Just my thoughts on why the travel distance should be most stringent.

Reply
Laura C.
1/28/2020 10:49:25 am

This would be my take as well.

Reply
Paul Pinigis
1/28/2020 11:03:29 am

I understand the desire to be flexible for the future, but the obligation is to provide egress for the use of the space. If the intent were to provide egress for every potential future use of a space, there would be no need to categorize any space and we would have just one travel limit. If I have a warehouse, I will review the egress with respect to that use of the space. If the use changes to a nightclub in the future, the egress will then have to be considered with respect to that use. But, since this change my never happen, there is no point in considering it now.

Reply
Dan Wilder
1/28/2020 11:59:02 am

As a contractor, I cannot anticipate the "what-if" scenarios. The building is designed based off of a stated use that falls into specific design requirements as dictated by that occupancy (and AHJ amendments and/or insurance requirements). Occupancy, construction method, egress paths, egress , exit signage, sprinkler design, fire alarm design, even the operation aspect of the building all follow that stated information, if it changes then other dependent items should also change at that future time. I also cannot justify the additional cost to an owner for a what-if when I don't have any building codes to back my position in this case.

Reply
Wayne Ammons
1/28/2020 01:55:36 pm

Agreed.

David Doudy
7/19/2021 11:29:45 am

As a firefighter I can tell you the reason that travel distance has to be figured by staying in contact with a wall... SMOKE, in a fire situation smoke will obscure your vision to the point you will be unable to see across a room. If you lose contact with a wall you will lose your sense of direction and, more than likely, never find the exit. I challenged our local building official to come to our fire tower and I would show him why you need a wall... We allowed him to see everything in the room, wide open before we "Smoked" the room. then we "smoked" the room with a smoke machine while he was standing in the middle, once the room was full of smoke we told him he could exit... He promptly walked to a wall (The wrong one) and proceeded to go the wrong way... only then, staying in contact with the wall, did he go the entire way around the room (40x40) and find the exit... he no longer has any issues with staying in contact with the wall when determining travel distance.

Paul Pinigis
1/28/2020 10:37:21 am

The distance is measured along the natural path of egress. If the natural path is across the diagonal of the room, then that's where you measure.

Reply
sean
1/28/2020 11:02:35 am

I think the reviewer is taking the worst case scenario, expecting obstructions/future obstructions. An exercise studio could be for stationary cycling which would have obstructions to work around.

Reply
WES
1/28/2020 12:49:51 pm

If it's designed too liberally then technically the fire marshal could show up and require the diagonal egress path be maintained at all times.

Inherently we don't want the furniture layout to be so strictly tied down that it limits how the owner can arrange the space in the future.

It's not just the AHJ that's keeping in mind the future use. An owner/future architect could be handcuffed in the future if they design the space too tight. Once again the AHJ would have to be the bad guy.

I'm not an AHJ myself, just thinking here there might be room for compromise. Maybe provide voluntary smoke detection in the space for early fire detection (thus allowing more time for egress)? Shorter waterflow retard time (allowing more time for egress)? Add an additional exit from the space (allow more paths to exit)?

Reply
sean
1/28/2020 03:13:55 pm

I work on the AHJ side and many inspectors don't get or don't want too much room to work with. It becomes an issue that by providing flexibility you are now not enforcing the law.

Tom
1/28/2020 11:12:30 am

No one can predict all possible future uses however I think the plan examiner is taking the extreme on this. I would measure from the furthest point in the room to the exit and deal with change of uses when, and if, they come.

Reply
Aa
1/28/2020 11:22:38 am

IBC 2018 has the requirement to measure travel distance horizontally and vertically, there is further discussion in the Commentary as well.

1017.3 Measurement. Exit access travel distance shall be
measured from the most remote point of each room, area or
space along the natural and unobstructed path of horizontal
and vertical egress travel to the entrance to an exit.
Exception: In open parking garages, exit access travel
distance is permitted to be measured to the closest riser of
an exit access stairway or the closest slope of an exit
access ramp.

Reply
WES
1/28/2020 12:45:04 pm

I'm not sure they mean plan "horizontal" and plan "vertical" here. To me this reads as literally traveling on a horizontal plane or vertically, as you would on a ramp or stair.

Reply
David Kalinec link
1/28/2020 12:52:08 pm

IBC §1016, outlines the methods for defining travel distance. Along walls, around obstructions, and to the center-line of a door is the standard calculation. A diagonal path assumes there will be no obstructions such as equipment, mats, barbells, boxes, etc.... which there inevitably will be. Therefore, the safest path is along walls and around obstructions, which is not a straight, diagonal path. The commentary also offers great details on this subject as do many AHJ publications.

Reply
Scott
1/28/2020 04:56:57 pm

it depends on what is being measured. For instance, if you are measuring for the placement of the second required exit(1/2 distance rule), then I would say you were correct. The examiner may also be correct if he is looking for exit/exit access travel distances. As an AHJ, I would probably accept what you are showing as long as the travel distances are shown. I hope that makes sense!

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    SUBMIT A QUESTION
    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    ALL-ACCESS

    Picture
    GET ALL OUR TOOLS

    SUBSCRIBE

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    COMMUNITY

    Top ​August '23 Contributors
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    YOUR POST

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    PE EXAM

    Get 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
    SIGN ME UP!

    FILTERS

    All
    A1171
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    ASTM E1354
    Blog Thread
    Daily Discussion
    Design-documents
    EN 12845
    Explosion Protection
    Explosion-protection-prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable And Combustible Liquids
    Flammable-combustible-liquids
    FM Global
    Human-behavior
    IBC
    ICC 500
    IFC
    IMC
    IPC
    IRC
    ISO
    Means Of Egress
    NBC
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 1142
    NFPA 1221
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 16
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 220
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 241
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 30B
    NFPA 33
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 409
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 495
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 55
    NFPA 654
    NFPA 68
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 701
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 75
    NFPA 770
    NFPA 82
    NFPA 855
    NFPA 90A
    NFPA 92
    NFPA 96
    NICET
    OBC
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management
    Special Hazard Systems
    UFC 3-600-01
    UFC 4-021-01
    UPC
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    ARCHIVES

    October 2023
    September 2023
    August 2023
    July 2023
    June 2023
    May 2023
    April 2023
    March 2023
    February 2023
    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    September 2022
    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016


    PE PREP SERIES

    Fire Protection PE Exam Prep
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    RSS Feed

Picture
​Home
Our Cause
The Blog
The Forum
PE Exam Prep
The Toolkit

MeyerFire University
​Pricing
Login
​Support
Contact Us
Picture

MeyerFire.com is a startup community built to help fire protection professionals shine.
Our goal is to improve fire protection practices worldwide. We promote the industry by creating helpful tools and resources, and by bringing together industry professionals to share their expertise.

​MeyerFire, LLC is a NICET Recognized Training Provider and International Code Council Preferred Education Provider.

All text, images, and media ​Copyright © 2023 MeyerFire, LLC

We respect your privacy and personal data. See our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. 
The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

Discussions are solely for the purpose of peer review and the exchange of ideas. All comments are reviewed. Comments which do not contribute, are not relevant, are spam, or are disrespectful in nature may be removed. Information presented and opinions expressed should not be relied upon as a replacement for consulting services. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a small commission for orders placed elsewhere.

  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • JOIN
    • CATALOG
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
    • [THE ALL-NEW SITE]
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • OUR CAUSE
    • ABOUT MEYERFIRE
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT