Smoke Detector at Top of MRL Elevator Shaft?

3/13/2023

We have a 3-story building using machine roomless elevators (MRL).

I have an inspector asking for a smoke detector at the top of an elevator shaft even though there is no sprinkler at the top of the shaft.

There are roomless machine rooms on the first/ground floor lowest level. We installed smoke detectors in each of these roomless machine rooms putting the smoke/heat detector as close to the object it is protecting. There is no ceiling for these.

The inspector says he wants the smoke at the top of the shaft because of the machine room at the bottom floor and says the smoke will rise and we need the detector at the top of the shaft.

I wrote him a book report that NFPA 72 allows for smoke detectors to be installed close the object they are protecting.

There is a sprinkler in the pit and we have a heat next to it within 24 inches. I really think that the heat in the pit should generate a recall to the alternate level and they have us shunt tripping it?

Some details on the equipment location: the machinery is on the lowest-level inside the shaft. It is accessible by a man door from the side of the shaft.

Because of the machine being inside the shaft, is a smoke detector required at the top of the shaft?

The inspector is asking for the smoke detectors at the top of the shaft because the Machine room is in the shaft at the 1st floor. He says there is no ceiling in the machine room so he wants the smoke detector at the top of the shaft.

Thanks in advance.

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27 Comments

Anthony

3/13/2023 07:23:19 am

What happens if there is a fire on the 2nd or third floor? I think it's a reasonable request.

David Perna

3/13/2023 04:10:15 pm

If there is no sprinkler at the top of the shaft, the code does not require a smoke detector and actually frowns upon them being installed at the TOS. If there is an inspector asking for a smoke in the machine room and the machine room is at the first landing there is code that allows for the detector to be within 5 feet of the object it is protecting. We are seeing push back on smokes at TOS and reviewers indicating that most smoked detectors are not listed for use at the TOS.

21.3.6 Smoke detectors shall not be installed in unsprinklered elevator hoistways unless they are installed to activate hoistway relief equipment or initiate phase I emergency Recall Operations as required in 21.3.13.1 (2) and 21.3.13.2 (2)

21.3.13.1 (2) Activation of smoke detectors or other automatic fire detection as permitted by 21.2.9 located at any elevator machine room, elevator machinery space, elevator control space, or elevator control room serving elevator (s), except where such rooms or spaces are located at the designated level

Manny

3/13/2023 08:14:40 am

I concur with Anthony, heat/smoke rises and detector’s should be installed at the highest point of the shafts. Regardless of the sprinkler head location.

chad

3/13/2023 08:18:17 am

Aside from the fact that smoke rises, as others state above, pretty sure its also an ANSI requirement but I am not an elevator guy.

Haven't seen an elevator hoistway without a smoke at the top of the shaft, regardless of sprinkler, MRL or not.

Daniel Knott

3/13/2023 08:35:38 am

I'm pretty sure elevator code requires it

Todd E Wyatt

3/13/2023 09:08:51 am

AHJs (Authorities Having Jurisdiction) enforce and interpret the adopted Codes, they do not (should not) “create” Code requirements based on what they “like” or “want”. If the Code does not specifically address a special condition, the AHJ has the authority “to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions” but “such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code.”

The scoping Code (e.g. 2021 IBC) determines WHERE smoke detection is required in a building per “Chapter 9 Fire Protection and Life Safety Systems”. This chapter references (see REFERENCES) ...

1) “HOISTWAY” (17) times in this chapter;
2) “ELEVATOR” (43) times in this chapter;
3) “ELEVATOR MACHINE ” (4) times in this chapter.

Of these references, (0) require smoke detection requirements based on the scenario you describe.

Per 2021 IBC “Chapter 30 Elevators and Conveying Systems”, it references “SMOKE DETECT” (4) time (see REFERENCES) but based on these references, (0) require smoke detection requirements based on the scenario you describe.

The referenced standards (e.g. 2019 NFPA 72 National Fire Alarm and Signaling Code, 2019 A17.1 Safety Code for Elevators and Escalators) are “part of this code (e.g. 2021 IBC) to the extent of the reference to the standard” but they do not identify the “scoping” requirements.

I recommend you request the AHJ cite the Code requirement(s) for smoke detection in a HOISTWAY that reflects what he “wants” and/or “likes”.

Todd E Wyatt

3/13/2023 09:09:18 am

REFERENCES
2021 IBC
Section 104 Duties and Powers of Building Official
104.1 General
The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.

“HOISTWAY” References

Chapter 9 Fire Protection and Life Safety Systems
Section 909 Smoke Control Systems
909.6 Pressurization Method
909.6.3 Pressurized Stairways and Elevator HOISTWAYs
Where stairways or elevator HOISTWAYs are pressurized, such pressurization systems shall comply with Section 909 as smoke control systems, in addition to the requirements of Sections 909.20 of this code and 909.21 of the International Fire Code.

909.21 Elevator HOISTWAY Pressurization Alternative
Where elevator HOISTWAY pressurization is provided in lieu of required enclosed elevator lobbies, the pressurization system shall comply with Sections 909.21.1 through 909.21.11.
909.21.1 Pressurization Requirements
Elevator HOISTWAYs shall be pressurized to maintain a minimum positive pressure of 0.10 inch of water (25 Pa) and a maximum positive pressure of 0.25 inch of water (67 Pa) with respect to adjacent occupied space on all floors. This pressure shall be measured at the midpoint of each HOISTWAY door, with all elevator cars at the floor of recall and all HOISTWAY doors on the floor of recall open and all other HOISTWAY doors closed. The pressure differentials shall be measured between the HOISTWAY and the adjacent elevator landing. The opening and closing of HOISTWAY doors at each level must be demonstrated during this test. The supply air intake shall be from an outside, uncontaminated source located a minimum distance of 20 feet (6096 mm) from any air exhaust system or outlet.
Exceptions:
1. On floors containing only Group R occupancies, the pressure differential is permitted to be measured between the HOISTWAY and a dwelling unit or sleeping unit.
2. Where an elevator opens into a lobby enclosed in accordance with Section 3007.6 or 3008.6, the pressure differential is permitted to be measured between the HOISTWAY and the space immediately outside the door(s) from the floor to the enclosed lobby.

909.21.1.1 Use of Ventilation Systems
Ventilation systems, other than HOISTWAY supply air systems, are permitted to be used to exhaust air from adjacent spaces on the fire floor, two floors immediately below and one floor immediately above the fire floor to the building's exterior where necessary to maintain positive pressure relationships as required in Section 909.21.1 during operation of the elevator shaft pressurization system.

909.21.4 Fan System
The fan system provided for the pressurization system shall be as required by Sections 909.21.4.1 through 909.21.4.4.
909.21.4.3 Separate Systems
A separate fan system shall be used for each elevator HOISTWAY.

909.21.11 System Response Time
HOISTWAY pressurization systems shall comply with the requirements for smoke control system response time in Section 909.17.

Section 914 Emergency Responder Safety Features
914.1.1 Exterior Access to Shaftways
Outside openings accessible to the fire department and that open directly on a HOISTWAY or shaftway communicating between two or more floors in a building shall be plainly marked with the word "SHAFTWAY" in red letters not less than 6 inches (152 mm) high on a white background. Such warning signs shall be placed so as to be readily discernible from the outside of the building.
914.1.2 Interior Access to Shaftways
Door or window openings to a HOISTWAY or shaftway from the interior of the building shall be plainly marked with the word "SHAFTWAY" in red letters not less than 6 inches (152 mm) high on a white background. Such warning signs shall be placed so as to be readily discernible.
Exception: Markings shall not be required on shaftway openings that are readily discernible as openings onto a shaftway by the construction or arrangement.

Todd E Wyatt

3/13/2023 09:09:55 am

“ELEVATOR” References

Chapter 9 Fire Protection and Life Safety Systems
Section 903 Automatic Sprinkler Systems
903.3.1.1.1 Exempt Locations
5. Fire service access ELEVATOR machine rooms and machinery spaces.
6. Machine rooms, machinery spaces, control rooms and control spaces associated with occupant evacuation ELEVATORs designed in accordance with Section 3008.

Section 907 Fire Alarm and Detection Systems
907.2 Where Required—New Buildings and Structures
Exceptions:
1. The manual fire alarm box is not required for fire alarm systems dedicated to ELEVATOR recall control and supervisory service.

907.2.2.1 Ambulatory Care Facilities
Fire areas containing ambulatory care facilities shall be provided with an electronically supervised automatic smoke detection system installed within the ambulatory care facility and in public use areas outside of tenant spaces, including public corridors and ELEVATOR lobbies.

907.2.13.1 Automatic Smoke Detection
Automatic smoke detection in high-rise buildings shall be in accordance with Sections 907.2.13.1.1 and 907.2.13.1.2.
907.2.13.1.1 Area Smoke Detection
Area smoke detectors shall be provided in accordance with this section. Smoke detectors shall be connected to an automatic fire alarm system. The activation of any detector required by this section shall activate the emergency voice/alarm communication system in accordance with Section 907.5.2.2. In addition to smoke detectors required by Sections 907.2.1 through 907.2.9, smoke detectors shall be located as follows:
1. In each mechanical equipment, electrical, transformer, telephone equipment or similar room that is not provided with sprinkler protection.
2. In each ELEVATOR machine room, machinery space, control room and control space and in ELEVATOR lobbies.

907.2.13.2 Fire Department Communication System
Where a wired communication system is approved in lieu of an in-building two-way emergency responder communication coverage system in accordance with Section 510 of the International Fire Code, the wired fire department communication system shall be designed and installed in accordance with NFPA 72 and shall operate between a fire command center complying with Section 911, ELEVATORs, ELEVATOR lobbies, emergency and standby power rooms, fire pump rooms, areas of refuge and inside interior exit stairways. The fire department communication device shall be provided at each floor level within the interior exit stairway.

907.2.18 Underground Buildings With Smoke Control Systems
907.2.18.1 Smoke Detectors
Not fewer than one smoke detector listed for the intended purpose shall be installed in all of the following areas:
1. Mechanical equipment, electrical, transformer, telephone equipment, ELEVATOR machine or similar rooms.
2. ELEVATOR lobbies.

907.3 Fire Safety Functions
907.3.3 ELEVATOR Emergency Operation
Automatic fire detectors installed for ELEVATOR emergency operation shall be installed in accordance with the provisions of ASME A17.1/CSA B44 and NFPA 72.

907.5 Occupant Notification
907.5.2 Alarm Notification Appliances
907.5.2.1 Audible Alarms
Audible alarm notification appliances shall be provided and emit a distinctive sound that is not to be used for any purpose other than that of a fire alarm.
Exceptions:
3. Where provided, audible notification appliances located in each enclosed occupant evacuation ELEVATOR lobby in accordance with Section 3008.9.1 shall be connected to a separate notification zone for manual paging only.

907.5.2.2 Emergency Voice/Alarm Communication Systems
1. ELEVATOR groups.

907.5.2.3 Visible Alarms
Visible alarm notification appliances shall be provided in accordance with Sections 907.5.2.3.1 through 907.5.2.3.3.
Exceptions:
Visible alarm notification appliances shall not be required in ELEVATOR cars.

Section 909 Smoke Control Systems
909.6 Pressurization Method
909.6.3 Pressurized Stairways and ELEVATOR Hoistways
Where stairways or ELEVATOR hoistways are pressurized, such pressurization systems shall comply with Section 909 as smoke control systems, in addition to the requirements of Sections 909.20 of this code and 909.21 of the International Fire Code.

909.16 Fire Fighter's Smoke Control Panel
909.16.2 Smoke Control Panel
The fire fighter's control panel shall provide control capability over the complete smoke control system equipment within the building as follows:
1. ON-AUTO-OFF control over each individual piece of operating smoke control equipment that can be controlled from other sources within the building. This includes stairway pressurization fans; smoke exhaust fans; supply, return and exhaust fans; ELEVATOR shaft fans and other operating equipment used or intended for smoke control purposes.

909.21 ELEVATOR Hoistway Pressurization Alternative
Where ELEVATOR hoistway pressurization is provided in lieu of required enclosed ELEVATOR lobbies, the pressurization system shall comply with Sections 909.21.1 through 909.21.11.
909.21.1 Pressurization Requireme

Todd E Wyatt

3/13/2023 09:10:46 am

Continued ...

909.21.1 Pressurization Requirements
ELEVATOR hoistways shall be pressurized to maintain a minimum positive pressure of 0.10 inch of water (25 Pa) and a maximum positive pressure of 0.25 inch of water (67 Pa) with respect to adjacent occupied space on all floors. This pressure shall be measured at the midpoint of each hoistway door, with all ELEVATOR cars at the floor of recall and all hoistway doors on the floor of recall open and all other hoistway doors closed. The pressure differentials shall be measured between the hoistway and the adjacent ELEVATOR landing. The opening and closing of hoistway doors at each level must be demonstrated during this test. The supply air intake shall be from an outside, uncontaminated source located a minimum distance of 20 feet (6096 mm) from any air exhaust system or outlet.
Exceptions:
1. On floors containing only Group R occupancies, the pressure differential is permitted to be measured between the hoistway and a dwelling unit or sleeping unit.
2. Where an ELEVATOR opens into a lobby enclosed in accordance with Section 3007.6 or 3008.6, the pressure differential is permitted to be measured between the hoistway and the space immediately outside the door(s) from the floor to the enclosed lobby.
909.21.1.1 Use of Ventilation Systems
Ventilation systems, other than hoistway supply air systems, are permitted to be used to exhaust air from adjacent spaces on the fire floor, two floors immediately below and one floor immediately above the fire floor to the building's exterior where necessary to maintain positive pressure relationships as required in Section 909.21.1 during operation of the ELEVATOR shaft pressurization system.
909.21.3 Ducts for System
Any duct system that is part of the pressurization system shall be protected with the same fire-resistance rating as required for the ELEVATOR shaft enclosure.
909.21.4 Fan System
The fan system provided for the pressurization system shall be as required by Sections 909.21.4.1 through 909.21.4.4.
909.21.4.1 Fire Resistance
Where located within the building, the fan system that provides the pressurization shall be protected with the same fire-resistance rating required for the ELEVATOR shaft enclosure.
909.21.4.3 Separate Systems
A separate fan system shall be used for each ELEVATOR hoistway.
909.21.6 Activation of Pressurization System
The ELEVATOR pressurization system shall be activated upon activation of either the building fire alarm system or the ELEVATOR lobby smoke detectors. Where both a building fire alarm system and ELEVATOR lobby smoke detectors are present, each shall be independently capable of activating the pressurization system.

Section 911 Fire Command Center
911.1.6 Required Features
911.1.6 Required Features
The fire command center shall comply with NFPA 72 and shall contain all of the following features:
4. Annunciator unit visually indicating the location of the ELEVATORs and whether they are operational.
911.1.6 Required Features
13 An approved Building Information Card that contains, but is not limited to, the following information:
13.4 Exit access and exit stairway information that includes: number of exit access and exit stairways in the building, each exit access and exit stairway designation and floors served, location where each exit access and exit stairway discharges, interior exit stairways that are pressurized, exit stairways provided with emergency lighting, each exit stairway that allows reentry, exit stairways providing roof access; ELEVATOR information that includes: number of ELEVATOR banks, ELEVATOR bank designation, ELEVATOR car numbers and respective floors that they serve; location of ELEVATOR machine rooms, control rooms and control spaces; location of sky lobby, location of freight ELEVATOR banks.
17. ELEVATOR fire recall switch in accordance with ASME A17.1/CSA B44.
18. ELEVATOR emergency or standby power selector switch(es), where emergency or standby power is provided.

Todd E Wyatt

3/13/2023 09:11:15 am

“ELEVATOR MACHINE” References

Section 903 Automatic Sprinkler Systems
903.3 Installation Requirements
903.3.1 Standards
903.3.1.1 NFPA 13 Sprinkler Systems
903.3.1.1.1 Exempt Locations
Automatic sprinklers shall not be required in the following rooms or areas where such rooms or areas are protected with an approved automatic fire detection system in accordance with Section 907.2 that will respond to visible or invisible particles of combustion. Sprinklers shall not be omitted from a room merely because it is damp, of fire-resistance-rated construction or contains electrical equipment.
5. Fire service access ELEVATOR MACHINE rooms and machinery spaces.

Section 907 Fire Alarm and Detection Systems
907.2 Where Required—New Buildings and Structures
907.2.13.1.1 Area Smoke Detection
Area smoke detectors shall be provided in accordance with this section. Smoke detectors shall be connected to an automatic fire alarm system. The activation of any detector required by this section shall activate the emergency voice/alarm communication system in accordance with Section 907.5.2.2. In addition to smoke detectors required by Sections 907.2.1 through 907.2.9, smoke detectors shall be located as follows:
1. In each mechanical equipment, electrical, transformer, telephone equipment or similar room that is not provided with sprinkler protection.
2. In each ELEVATOR MACHINE room, machinery space, control room and control space and in elevator lobbies.

Section 911 Fire Command Center
911.1.6 Required Features
13. An approved Building Information Card that contains, but is not limited to, the following information:
13.4 Exit access and exit stairway information that includes: number of exit access and exit stairways in the building, each exit access and exit stairway designation and floors served, location where each exit access and exit stairway discharges, interior exit stairways that are pressurized, exit stairways provided with emergency lighting, each exit stairway that allows reentry, exit stairways providing roof access; elevator information that includes: number of elevator banks, elevator bank designation, elevator car numbers and respective floors that they serve; location of ELEVATOR MACHINE rooms, control rooms and control spaces; location of sky lobby, location of freight elevator banks.

Todd E Wyatt

3/13/2023 09:12:21 am

“SMOKE DETECT” References

Section 3005 Machine Rooms
3005.3 Pressurization
The elevator machine room, control rooms or control space with openings into a pressurized elevator hoistway shall be pressurized upon activation of a heat or SMOKE DETECTOR located in the elevator machine room, control room or control space.

Danial Bartle

3/13/2023 09:17:20 am

I have been through this a few times.

ASME A17.1-2016 2.27.3.2 "A machinery space containing a motor controller or driving machine located in the elevator hoistway, or a control space located in the elevator hoistway requires a fire alarm initiating device regardless of the presence of sprinklers"
.I tried to work it out on a 2-stop traction elevator to avoid two different inspectors during either annual inspection but was unable to. ASME is referenced in NFPA 101 and 1 so it takes precedence.

Randy Rathert

3/13/2023 09:20:30 am

Atta Boy Todd !
Very thorough and a little bit intimidating !

Todd E Wyatt

3/13/2023 09:51:17 am

Thanks ... as an AHJ for the WY DOH, our department would always include the referenced Code & applicable section(s) when identifying a noncompliance condition during plan reviews and/or inspection for licensure (and occupancy).

3/13/2023 09:52:33 am

"There is a sprinkler in the pit and we have a heat next to it within 24 inches. I really think that the heat in the pit should generate a recall to the alternate level and they have us shunt tripping it?"

You are correct, the heat's primary role is for shunt trip. Your shaft is in essence the machine room, so a smoke detector at the top makes sense.

Mike R

3/13/2023 10:51:13 am

I came here to say this, lots of good stuff and references above but short and sweet is what JT said. MRL makes the hoistway itself the machine room.

David Perna

3/13/2023 04:23:16 pm

most of our Roomless Machine rooms are usually at the top of the shaft. This one was at the bottom. Generally the roomless at the TOS the smoke for the machine room is the TOS smoke so if there is no sprinkler head the roomless machine room is TOS then we have a smoke there because of the machine room. We have had several where there roomless machine was on the first level and no one asked for a smoke at TOS or there was a sprinkler TOS and it got a smoke there too. There needs to be some clarification in the code because currently the code basically states no sprinkler head TOS then no smoke either.

3/13/2023 12:26:02 pm

72:21.3.9*

Smoke detectors shall not be installed in elevator hoistways to initiate Elevator Phase I Emergency Recall Operation unless listed for the environmental conditions.

David Perna

3/13/2023 04:18:47 pm

Exactly!! And guess how many are listed for this use? None!!

sean

3/13/2023 05:53:36 pm

How is elevator recall going to occur then?

Rob B

3/14/2023 09:26:37 am

Do what the AHJ asks... With all do respect, either you are a contractor or design professional and its not your job to question it. As for Todd's response, its in the ANSI codes.. and honestly the more protection you can install in a elevator shaft, hoist way, machine room, or whatever fancy term you want to give it makes perfect sense. These areas should be both fire sprinkler protected and smoke/heat detected as they are critical areas of the building that present a life hazard and also may be necessary to remove occupants by the FD... protect it.

Todd E Wyatt

3/15/2023 09:19:02 am

With all due respect, AHJs are local, state, and/or federal workers and they work for the taxpayer, us.

An AHJ cannot "revise" a Code requirement simply because they personally disagree with it. AHJs cannot apply the Code requirements differently for different Projects simply based on their opinion. It is our right and our professional responsibility (to our clients) to challenge, respectfully, AHJ’s interpretations that we feel are erroneous and/or overstepping.

If the client instructs the Design Team to “do what the AHJ requests”, that is their prerogative (its their money).

As design professionals, we are legally required to provide Code-compliant designs that meet the minimum requirements of the adopted Codes.

If a client requests design features that surpass these minimum Code requirements, that is their prerogative (it’s their money).

Unless a specific standard is adopted by a jurisdiction (e.g. ASME A17.1/CSA B44, Safety Code for Elevators and Escalators) in its entirety, its reference in the adopted Code(s) is limited to “the extent called for within other chapters of this Code.” For example, NFPA 10 is referenced in NFPA 101 Chapter 2 ... this does not mean that ALL buildings must have portable fire extinguishers. Portable fire extinguishers are mandatory ONLY to the extent called for elsewhere in the Code.

Rob B

3/16/2023 02:59:43 pm

Todd, With all due respect you are correct and wrong at the same time. While AHJ work for the public and DP's represent their clients best interest, it is however the AHJ's final & ultimate responsibility to make sure the building is fire safe, and that is not always a code compliant solution. I know that is hard to quantify, but that is real world. The AHJ often has working knowledge of local conditions that aren't covered in code, or needs things done a specific way to provide a level of protection. It is their prerogative to specify how that gets done. Now, that is all said with a grain of salt. In example, a local law would be required if a building didn't require sprinklers by code, but the AHJ was requiring it (think large scale). In another example, the AHJ requires an EPO switch at the fire command center for a building BDA system. You are not going to write a local law for a switch and it isnt currently covered in a written standard. If a DP even brought that up at a meeting they would be laughed out of the room. I do agree that these should be relegated to items that are of importance. If the AHJ is making you paint your sprinkler pipe red because they feel like it, they should be laughed out of the room.

Ivan J. Humberson

3/16/2023 07:40:35 am

Since compliance with ASME A17.1 is required by both NFPA 101 (2021 ed., Sect. 9.4.2.1) and IBC (2021 ed., Sect. 3001.3), and, as Danial pointed out, ASME A17.1 requires a fire alarm initiating device, the shaft needs to have some sort of detection installed. However, since installation of a smoke detector would not comply with NFPA 72 and the smoke detector listing, why couldn't the required initiation device be a rate or rise detector or some other detection means? ASME A17.1 does not specify smoke detection.

Chad

3/16/2023 03:15:21 pm

The AHJ is also afforded latitude and discretion by most model codes. Todd is right that just because they personally disagreed with it doesn’t make it OK for them to change it. But if they believe a higher level of protection is required beyond the prescriptive, strict definition, for example requiring a smoke detector where there is already a fire alarm require, it can be justified as reasonable and prudent. Even normal and customary.

What I am not saying is they can do anything or act unreasonable, such as Ivan’s example of painting all the sprinkler pipe red.

And yes, this is subjective and can be abused. But the codes, especially the fire and life safety codes are not 100% black and white. All of these things need to be taken on a case by case basis. The AHJ must be careful and conscientious when making such demands. And use this power judiciously.

Jason Lupa, PE

10/20/2023 07:32:48 am

Smoke detection is required in the top of an elevator hoistway for MRL's.

The MRL type places the motor controller and/or driving machine in the hoistway which makes it a machinery spaces. NFPA 72 [2016] 21.3.13.1 which require smoke in the elevator machinery space to initiate Phase I recall. Later editions are more direct. A smoke is required for all MRL’s, regardless of the presence of fire sprinklers.

Mark Obey

3/6/2025 09:37:26 am

Nice, concise and correct.

Smoke Detector at Top of MRL Elevator Shaft?

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