Estimating Design Hours for BIM Coordination?

4/28/2020

Any BIM sprinkler coordinators here? What is your experience in estimating design effort for BIM Coordination?

Do you charge by the head or by hour? The last hospital I coordinated took 4 hours per sprinkler.

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9 Comments

Dan Wilder

4/28/2020 09:11:15 am

Our approach is 75-100% increase from the base design hours amount at a minimum depending on the building (hospitals being the worst down to open warehouse ESFR). It's not so much that our design will actually take that long, but sitting in meetings and other trades being reactive to a design causes a lot of go backs.

Plenty of meetings I have been in where the HVAC Dry side ran a duct into the structure, lowered it only to hit ceilings then went to widen it and took out his own wet side utilities and had no forethought to try and make it work before the meeting. Meanwhile, sprinkler guy over here is waiting for all the other "big trades" to figure out that square pegs don't fit in round holes so we can run a couple 1" drops into ceilings below.

federico pacheco

4/29/2020 11:54:04 am

This is certainly true specially in countries where each trade works independently, and the "BIM" QA/QC is done at field, where cost overruns are the rule.

James

4/28/2020 10:24:00 am

We start with a minimum of adding 50% more to design. We add hours from there, depending on the complexity of the project.

Greg Stoner

4/28/2020 10:34:53 am

I am looking forward to hearing ideas on this great topic. As an estimator, BIM is a challenge for me. I estimate design hours separately and add BIM meetings in afterwards based on the project schedule.

4/28/2020 10:41:35 am

Projects with designated BIM coordinators typically have BIM coordination schedules. While the schedule might not be contractually binding, it can be helpful to see how many meetings per week the BIM Coordinator is planning and how long each meeting will be. You might not be able to get this information if you are bidding in the early stages of a project, but it's worth asking for. It would be very difficult for the BIM coordinator to estimate their own cost without being able to estimate a quantity of meetings and the duration of meetings. The level of BIM and expected project deliverables are also things to consider.

Cliff

4/29/2020 07:08:31 am

Word to the wise, BIM coordination schedules are rarely realistic

Mike

4/28/2020 11:40:46 am

I appreciate the feedback. I had estimates of at least the initial design hours and up to 3 hours if it's OSHPD.

It is unfortunate most of the time we're on the sideline waiting and our piping is minimal compared to others.

My current manager doesn't move mains and uses flex drops. Tells other trades to clear all the hits because it is life safety and our layout is not flexible. He's been very good with this approach.

Lastly, I'm going to submit a detailed design during the design development phase. Then everybody knows I've already claimed my routing and elevations.

Our pipe may only be a nickel but it's still my nickel. 😂

Thanks again.

This is a great forum.

CJ Bonczyk

4/28/2020 12:18:50 pm

A few tips from my long tenure in the world of BIM/VDC.

1. Know who you are partnering with will identify if those other trades have a solid in house BIM protocol and team or if they are using some guy to model for them just because he has the capability and they don't. Also you'll know to what level that other sub has with coordination experience on the project you are bidding on.

2. The GC needs to identify how the VDC process will be conducted to certain extents in the forefront prior to bid. Modeling with a definitive process with the GC's direct involvement of their own BIM team is much more effective than them hiring out some guy who just runs a clash model and says here you go subs these are the clashes fix them amongst yourselves.

3. Know your designers capability. Just because they can design doesn't mean they know the best means of constructability which is critical. Make sure he understands construction, and other trade requirements for their equipment. Make sure he understand preliminary hydraulics. You don't want to coordinate the whole thing and then it doesn't work hydraulically and you can't alter the layout and sizes of appurtenances without causing a headache for everyone else. Get with the designer and come up with a game plan prior to bid and try to stick with it. How much extra time will they put in above their normal work hours, or how efficient have their designs been in non BIM or past BIM jobs.

4. Try to head off issues with the GC as early as you can prior to bid time by getting all the clear information about the building design. Call the GC and prior to bid, see if you can have a conference call meeting to discuss some major architectural, or engineering design issues from the A/E firms contract docs. GC's appreciate this and you would be surprised on helpful those can be to your benefit both for your designer and for the GC.

5. Know your hardware/software capabilities. Many projects require various file formats, model types, clash review software, etc. If you have to spend the money to make yourself on the cutting edge of technology...IT'S WORTH IT! The better equipped your company is they better off they can efficiently compete and effectively profit from a successful coordination process.

6. Additionally if your company can afford it try to recruit and hire the best BIM FP designers and keep them financially happy. They will save your company gobs of money in design, materials, and most importantly field labor in a quality BIM project. They can save your butt in a BIM project where you are getting the short end of the stick in the modeling process, coordination, as well as installation. Good FP 3D coordination designers know how to skin a cat multiple ways to save you every last penny. More importantly they can make great relationships with other BIM sub contractors who in the future will recommend your company on other project because you can get it done and are one of the best to work with. Also that GC will hire your for bigger projects knowing you are the go to company for BIM jobs. Who doesn't want more business opportunities right?

BIM/VDC is an ever evolving process, and the bidding science isn't perfect because changes come up, human error is involved, and things in the real world aren't as perfect as they are in the virtual world obviously. In some instances in the past we have estimated jobs 100% more than the normal design time and I didn't use half because the process was so smooth. Other Times we have bid 150% more on the design time and lost money because of the unforeseen challenges all coordination teams incurred. Don't bite off more than you can chew if your office isn't there yet because it can hurt you. These are just some things to keep in mind when adding up all those hours for a BIM project and seeing where you can cut, tuck, shore up, etc. to lock in a profitable, but fair and competitive price for BIM design.

Adam Bjorkman

4/29/2020 07:36:02 am

For estimating BIM projects I normally double the design time. It normally depends on the size of the job though. The trouble that we are running into right now is projects that were never figured for doing BIM that are turning into that kind of job with trades running the clashes and using it for coordination efforts, it will add to our design hours, but we have seen good return on field labor hours. I'd say the majority of projects now are about half modeled. We have been working closely with HVAC companies who are on board with coordinating everything this way, but working with electrical trades is more of a challenge. I feel like the sprinkler industry has been way ahead of this for a long time, pre-fabricating most of our piping we want to get everything in the right spot before fabrication starts, its nice to see others doing the same finally.

Estimating Design Hours for BIM Coordination?

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