MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Daily
  • Exam Prep
    • CFPS Tools
    • NICET Tools
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Problems
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
  • TOOLS
    • TOOLKIT (FREE TRIAL)
    • *TOOLKIT (PURCHASE)
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'19)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • CODE CALLS
  • LOGIN
  • STORE
  • About
Picture
A FORUM FOR FIRE PROTECTION QUESTIONS & PE EXAM PROBLEMS | SUBSCRIBE NOW

When are Post-Indicating Valves Required?

12/13/2018

5 Comments

 
Where does the requirement for a post-indicating valve originate? If I only have a sprinkler system, is a post-indicating valve required?

Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Subscribe
5 Comments
ZS
12/13/2018 06:32:54 am

My understanding is PIVs are needed based on NFPA 13 8.16.1.1.1.2 - at least one indicating valve is required in each source of supply. If for some reason you can't put a control valve on your supply line inside the building, you can use a PIV instead.

One place I saw PIVs used was outside an existing building. My assumption at the time was that they had more than one connection to the water main, and this would allow for each supply to be isolated.

I've also seen them used for convenience. For example, when it would be beneficial to have system control in an area that is subject to freezing.

Reply
Franck
12/13/2018 11:12:48 am

What is the purpose of having a PIV at 40 ft (12 m) ? If you unferstand the « why » behind, you will better understand the purpose.
The aim is to be able to isolate your sprinkler system from the water supply in case of total loss of your building. There are many possible reasons such as a change in occupancy, an impaired system...
If your sprinklers cannot control the fire, there might be a moment when you need to shut the supply to the system to save water for other systems and manual firefighting.
If the building collapse, you also need to isolate the system.
Here comes the 40 ft distance. Most industrial buildings are 30 ft high max. in case of collapse of the wall, the PIV is still accessible.
This means also that the distance may be reduced for a lower building (or increased).
Therefore, for reliability purposes, order of preference is
1. Piv ar safe distance
2. Piv wall (valve on the outside side of the bldg)
3. Valve inside

Some insurance companies such as FM Global (Factory Mutual) strongly recommend PIV and accept other situations on a case by case study (if putting the PIV valve at 40 ft means having the valve in the middle of the road, it doesn’t really make sense).

My motto : every time there is a rule, try to understand the reason behind. It will also help you to accept (or not) alternative solutions.

Reply
Stephen
9/18/2019 01:50:54 pm

It has to be outside of the Collapsible zone of the building which 40'

Reply
Dave L.
12/13/2018 11:44:16 am

It would be good if ANY Civil Engineering types could chime in in this one. ZS, do you mean a PIV as the only means? I am assuming you mean in addition to other indicating control valve(s) inside. In which case, correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as a PIV requirement, I think NFPA 24 used to require a yard PIV (unless the AHJ said otherwise) up through the 2007 edition. But that section (Chapter 6) has since changed. (I think it now only says what to do IF you have one.) With most AHJ,’s their municipal codes are available and searchable on-line, that is where I look for requirements on a case-by-case basis. Around here, some require PIV’s, others do not, and some require it if there is no outside access to the riser room. In some situations wall P.I. is an option, but as Franck says, building collapse zones sometimes factor in. I also check the public works/water purveyor standard details. And my notes from previous jobs. But when in doubt, for me it often comes down to a phone call or email to the AHJ, then document that communication. Similar applies to FDC location requirements.

Reply
EdwH
1/4/2019 10:00:57 am

NFPA 13-2016
8.16.1.1.1.1 Each sprinkler system shall be provided with a listed indicating valve in an accessible location, so located as to control all automatic sources of water supply.
A.8.16.1.1.1 A water supply connection should not extend into a building or through a building wall unless such connection is under the control of an outside listed indicating valve or an inside listed indicating valve located near the outside wall of the building. All valves controlling water supplies for sprinkler systems or portions thereof, including floor control valves, should be accessible to authorized persons during emergencies.
Outside control valves are suggested in the following order of preference:
(1) Listed indicating valves at each connection into the building at least 40 ft (12 m) from buildings if space permits
(2) Control valves installed in a cutoff stair tower or valve room accessible from outside
(3) Valves located in risers with indicating posts arranged for outside operation
(4) Key-operated valves in each connection into the building

the reasoning behind (1) is to avoid collapse of a wall, the reasoning behind (2) and (3) is to be able to isolate a system without entry.
The local AHJ may not allow a wall mounted PIV for the same reasons.

In every case, the reasoning is to be able to isolate a system for maintenance, or repair.

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    Jump to: Daily Posts
    Jump to: PE Problems
    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    Free Signup

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    Community

    Thank You to Our Top
    ​October '20 Contributors!
    1. SK
    2. Franck
    3. Dan W.
    4. Jonathan ​5. Casey M.
    6. Sean
    7. Colin L.
    8. Mike
    9. Jonathan J
    ​10. Daniel G.


    Your Post

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    The Toolkit

    Sprinkler Designer or Engineer?
    ​
    ​Get all of our tools, including the Sprinkler Database, Friction Loss Calculator, Fire Pump Analyzer and more:
    Picture
    FREE 30-DAY TRIAL
    GET THE TOOLKIT

    Filters

    All
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    Daily Discussion
    Design Documents
    Explosion Protection & Prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable & Combustible LIquids
    FM Global
    Human Behavior
    IBC
    IFC
    Information Sources For Analysis
    IRC
    Means Of Egress
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 12
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 92
    NICET
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management Systems
    Special Hazard Systems
    Types Of Analysis
    UFC 3 600 01
    UFC 3-600-01
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    Archives

    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016
    June 2015


    Daily
    Daily discussions are open-ended fire protection, fire alarm, and life safety questions submitted anonymously for the benefit of sharing expertise and learning from other perspectives. Anyone can submit a question here:
    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    Exam Prep

    Picture
    2020 PE Prep Guide​
    ​(Available Now!)
    Picture
    PE Prep Series
    ​(Available Now!)
    2020 PE Prep Series
    Current Leaderboard
    ​(Click to enlarge)
    Fire Protection PE Exam Prep

    PE Problems
    ​Visit July-October for daily Fire Protection PE Exam sample questions.

    Solutions are posted the day after posting.

    Comment with your solutions, questions or clarifications.

    Please note that questions posted are unofficial and in accordance with NCEES rules are intended to be similar to actual exam questions, not actual exam questions themselves.

    RSS Feed

Home - About - Blog - Contact - Exam Prep - Store
Picture
Copyright © 2020 MeyerFire, LLC
The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author shown and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a commission for orders placed elsewhere.
  • Blog
  • Daily
  • Exam Prep
    • CFPS Tools
    • NICET Tools
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Problems
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
  • TOOLS
    • TOOLKIT (FREE TRIAL)
    • *TOOLKIT (PURCHASE)
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'19)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • CODE CALLS
  • LOGIN
  • STORE
  • About