MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Problems
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
  • TOOLS
    • TOOLKIT (FREE TRIAL)
    • *TOOLKIT (PURCHASE)
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'19)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • TOOLKIT
  • LOGIN
  • STORE
  • About
Picture
ALL THINGS FIRE PROTECTION | SUBSCRIBE NOW

Use Window or Standard Sprinkler for Lot Line?

8/3/2020

9 Comments

 
Lot line window sprinkler protection: In the design drawings I have lot line window protected with standard concealed sprinklers. This same sprinkler is used to protect the whole room on the inside. Distances to all walls are less than 7'-6". The room is light hazard, and this only occurs in a single room.

Is this acceptable or should the window be protected by one sprinkler and a separate sprinkler for the room protection?

Also, is a standard pendent acceptable or would you rather have a Tyco Window Sprinkler (special application) for the window?

Thanks in advance.

​​​​​​​​Submitted anonymously and posted for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
9 Comments
Wayne Ammons
8/3/2020 07:36:35 am

I am not entirely sure what a “lot line window” is but window (glazing) protection is its own beast and must be protected with sprinklers specifically listed for that application. You will need to design and install them in accordance with NFPA 13 as well as the very specific criteria outlined in the sprinkler data sheets. Collaboration with the architect may also be required to confirm the construction of the windows.

Reply
Wayne Ammons
8/3/2020 07:43:25 am

I will also add that Tyco has a new concealed style window sprinkler that may be helpful when it comes to the aesthetics of the project.

https://www.tyco-fire.com/index.php?P=detailprod&S=6210

Reply
Franck
8/3/2020 10:21:38 am

I don't know what the AHJ would require in your area.

Normally, when the room is protected by sprinklers, you don't need to provide an additional window protection (otherwise it would be a nightmare in all offices, industrial buildings....).

The window protection is required when you need a specific fire rating fro the window (1 h) and the window is not rated. I don't know if you have a requirement for this 1 h fire rating for your windows.
Another application for windows protection is protection from exposures. In that case, the sprinkler rpotection is provided on the outside of the building to protect the windows openings from potential outside exposures (adjacent non sprinklerd building, outside storage...). It don't have the feeling that this is your case.

Reply
Casey
8/3/2020 11:25:49 am

There is a LOT to this topic and it gets very complicated, very quickly. make sure you know what edition of codes are driving this. I believe IBC/IFC states that you can use standard spray sprinklers when allowable per NFPA 13. Double check that, but there is mention in there about standard spray. It does not sound like you are trying to maintain a wall rating, but more of exposure protection from an adjacent building that is too close.

Reply
Wayne Cordiner link
8/3/2020 11:52:11 am

I'm assuming based on the term "Lot Line" that you are in the NYC area as that is the only place I've heard that term used before - please correct me if my assumption is wrong.

With that specific location in mind, the NYC BC addresses this through "BUILDINGS BULLETIN 2015-017" (see link below) but will generally refer you to NFPA 13 as modified by Appendix Q. Keep in mind, there are some variables such as building class, height, and location that come into play causing variations. In short, yes a standard pendent is permitted as the goal of this code/bulletin is to create a water curtain (provide a 1hr rating) similar to what you would with an atrium opening. It is common in NYC, for these to be fed from the end of a branchline, however note the requirements for the calculation procedures in 11.3.3 of NFPA 13. The lot line head should not be used to protect the space and a baffle will be needed if you can't achieve the 6'-0 of separation.

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/bldgs_bulletins/bb_2015-017.pdf

Reply
Aaron
8/3/2020 01:51:19 pm

You must know you'r stuff to deduce that!

You wrote that standard spray is good and referenced the Bulletin.
However the bulletin states "protected by an approved water curtain using automatic sprinklers a͟p͟p͟r͟o͟v͟e͟d͟
f͟o͟r͟ ͟t͟h͟a͟t͟ ͟u͟s͟e͟ and installed in accordance with NFPA 13 as modified in Appendix Q" does this mean that it must be specially listed for windows?

Please help me out with this and let us know where we can look more to clarify this.
Thanks

Reply
Wayne Cordiner link
8/3/2020 02:07:42 pm

Aaron,

Because these are not considered exposure protection systems they do not have to be specifically listed for window protection. Note in VI.A.4 of that bulletin where it references "openings" rather than windows. This will be handled much the same as a glass partition between a tenant space and lobby area. Again, this is specific to NYC and only the lot line protection locally mandated there so please do not take this as a blanket statement for all jurisdictions.

Artur
8/3/2020 03:42:02 pm

Thank you!
I didn't know tho it's NYC thing only.
The thing is we often use standard sprinklers to protect lot line window separate heads for the rest of the room (and we use bafles if needed).

On this one project engineer of record says lot line sprinkler can protect the whole room.
Just wanted to know your opinion on this.

Reply
Brian Gerdwagen FPE
8/3/2020 01:47:57 pm

You also need to look at Table 705.8 of the IBC, assuming it is codified, that allows what percentage of opening in a wall allowed as determined by distance to the FSD/Property Line. Less than 3', you are not allowed openings. Meaning that windows need to be rated like a wall, not a protected opening.

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    Jump to: Daily Posts
    Jump to: PE Problems
    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    Free Signup

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    Community

    Thank You to Our Top
    ​February '21 Contributors!
    1. Dan W.
    2. Franck
    3. Jesse
    4. CJ B.
    ​5. Brian G.
    6. Mike
    7. Matt
    8. Casey M.
    9. Jay R.
    10. Glenn B.

    Your Post

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    The Toolkit

    Sprinkler Designer or Engineer?
    ​
    ​Get all of our tools, including the Sprinkler Database, Friction Loss Calculator, Fire Pump Analyzer and more:
    Picture
    FREE 30-DAY TRIAL
    GET THE TOOLKIT

    Filters

    All
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    Daily Discussion
    Design Documents
    Explosion Protection & Prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable & Combustible LIquids
    FM Global
    Human Behavior
    IBC
    IFC
    Information Sources For Analysis
    IRC
    Means Of Egress
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 12
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 33
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 55
    NFPA 654
    NFPA 68
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 92
    NICET
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management Systems
    Special Hazard Systems
    Types Of Analysis
    UFC 3 600 01
    UFC 3-600-01
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    Archives

    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016


    Daily
    Daily discussions are open-ended fire protection, fire alarm, and life safety questions submitted anonymously for the benefit of sharing expertise and learning from other perspectives. Anyone can submit a question here:
    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    Exam Prep

    Picture
    2020 PE Prep Guide​
    ​(Available Now!)
    Picture
    PE Prep Series
    ​(Available Now!)
    2020 PE Prep Series
    Current Leaderboard
    ​(Click to enlarge)
    Fire Protection PE Exam Prep

    PE Problems
    ​Visit July-October for daily Fire Protection PE Exam sample questions.

    Solutions are posted the day after posting.

    Comment with your solutions, questions or clarifications.

    Please note that questions posted are unofficial and in accordance with NCEES rules are intended to be similar to actual exam questions, not actual exam questions themselves.

    RSS Feed

Picture
Home - About - Blog - Contact - Exam Prep - Store

​Copyright © 2021 MeyerFire, LLC

The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author shown and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a commission for orders placed elsewhere.
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Problems
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
  • TOOLS
    • TOOLKIT (FREE TRIAL)
    • *TOOLKIT (PURCHASE)
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'19)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • TOOLKIT
  • LOGIN
  • STORE
  • About