Tips for Coordinating Sprinklers in Navisworks?

10/25/2023

Has anyone had success in effectively coordinating sprinklers in medical office facilities in Navisworks?

Those I've spoken too say it's very time consuming and difficult to do since we are asked to be involved but usually are at the bottom of the priority list.

In Hydratec, it seems our best way has been to specify one (1) elevation point then work your way around and then riser nipple command because of the numerous up/down/over/arounds and lots of aux drains.

It seems as though the architects have lessened the amount of space for the mechanicals to run in because of this BIM/clash system.

Just looking for tips or recommendations on ways to be better about this. Thanks in advance.

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11 Comments

Anthony

10/25/2023 08:20:56 am

It all depends. I have been on projects where it was very beneficial (new building) and I have been on projects where it is extremely difficult (Existing Building where the model is not accurate) or the Light Coves aren't properly modeled to show the correct Framing (I got burned on this but I used the model as a fall back stating it wasn't true to what was being installed)

I work in AutoSprink so I overlay most of my work in AutoCAD, elevating everything to 6" above the ceiling and elevating my heads to the true heights. I import to AutoSprink then convert lines to pipe. (Mind you we need to be wary of lights and other ceiling elements)

Bim is mostly the way of the future becoming more frequent.

As you stated we are typically at the bottom of the totem pole but I use a couple things to try and push my way to the top !

- Hydraulic Calculation --> I cant add too many elbows because the water demand will not work creating a lot of issues
- Low Point Drains --> Add too many and the Building will hate you, No point in having a main drain back at the valve when you need to drain it from 5 different areas
- Sprinkler is life Safety so it needs to take priority

I was on 1 project where I warned them numerous times to not add elbows on the Standpipe. They didn't heed my warning and when we did the Fire Pump Flow Test from the Roof we didn't meet the criteria. Guess what they had to replace at the end of the job. The Pump because it needed to be rated for a higher PSI then because of this, they needed PRVs on the lower floors and full test ports for it. This was a HUGE cost impact. But I documented it all and they had to pay us for the changes.

As someone who hasn't had field experience 3D modeling was a great way for me to get used to see the other trades and what's installed. It hasn't been all great like sheet metal drafter forgetting the insulation on the duct or the plumber forgetting to show his access, but the 3D model is like the bible. I can't count the number of times I have said "well you didn't show it so how am I supposed to know"

I could go on and on but i hope some of the points help you out. It will always be an issue with the Architect wanting what they want.

Dave

10/25/2023 01:41:46 pm

Anthony:

Great response! Please clarify how you're moving back and forth between Autocad and Asprink. Are you saying that you're laying out the sprinks and pipe in AutoCAD, adjusting elevations, and then importing into AutoSprink?

Dan Wilder

10/25/2023 08:31:46 am

Hospitals are a 3x process in my experience....
1x to draw
1x to coordinate (HVAC/Plumbing)
1x to coordinate everyone who wasn't at the first meeting that is now in the model and clashing....oh ya, and somehow has priority over the space claim (Spec Gas/IT Cable Tray)

-Get signed off as quickly as possible and save that model....if the other trades are lagging behind, hit the GC up for costs for late submittals/fab impacts.
-Getting a vertical clearance zone chart created early helps a lot.
-Using 4' or even 6' flex hoses with 90° ends has been well worth the money.
-Running with the structure vs perpendicular to it has helped when it's easy to hang from the concrete/pan deck when the bottom of structure is consistent.
-Claiming the space created between the bottom of the major/minor structural elements
-Mains are tough but running them as low (and typically flat) as possible, then just working the riser nipples in.
-Find your janitors closets, the further away from those you are, the more you should be fighting to not move in elevation for Aux Drain pipe-down locations.
-Running a 1" pipe down a corridor wall to just above the ceiling with a valve (vertical) to a short nipple/90/plug for any other Aux Drains needed, just plan on some signage below the ceiling indicating the location. Stay out of any patient rooms/labs/admin areas for aux drains.
-Surgery rooms, just plan on hugging the perimeter
-Watch out for the exposed lower railing systems (4-6" deep) AND the upper support structure I've seen for many surgery/lab spaces. These used to be in the ceiling more but seem to just be in the way for pendent layouts.

RayJ link

10/25/2023 10:16:40 am

After reading all the above comments, they really make me miss meetings around a light table with all the drawings.

Dan Wilder

10/25/2023 10:44:29 am

Mylar/Vellums, wax paper rolls, some highlighters, and some drafting dots.....and donuts

RayJ link

10/25/2023 10:55:01 am

Donuts were the glue that held all those meetings together. I remember some guys getting upset if there weren't any donuts.

kimberly olivas

10/25/2023 02:43:13 pm

Agreed!

Dan cieslinski

10/25/2023 11:17:44 am

yes we do it alot. as long as every one is ready it will go fast.

Jesse

10/25/2023 11:43:32 am

Not a huge fan of Navisworks. We do a lot of BIM stuff. I'll just reiterate and emphasize what Dan Wilder said

Anthony

10/25/2023 03:34:53 pm

Some tips from experience:

More BIM time = less filed time.

if you're good at BIM you can pre cut hangers. At the very least place all your hangers. I don't know if hydratech can model hangers (use 1/2'' pipe if you have to) but you don't want to end up having your hangers cut down because a cable tray goes where your rod is hanging. clash these against the equipment above you.

Make (ask nicely) for any unistrut traps to be shown in model as they will 100% be a conflict somewhere when the piping starts to rack up deep.

Figure out what the actual contract document is. If it's the model, then hold them to it. if it's a 2d print out later or everyone's shops then be careful about how much time you invest in the model process "final tweaks" can land all your drops going right thorough a duct.

I enjoy Revit's and Autosprink's abilities to have other models natively hosed in the drawing field. That way I can know I won't hit structure (or whatever I 'turn on') while I draw. Makes the later clash detection in navis a bit smoother. This can get clunky if you import too many modeled in autosprink or have too many work sets visible in Revit.

Have a schedule where duct and anyone who "can't move" or is more important draws in prior to sprinkler, domestic water etc. Draw in by say Wednesday you draw in Thursday and Friday clash the following Monday. Essentially you want as little concurrent design as possible as that leads to more clashes rather than going trade by trade.

Only one trade can't model and "work round everyone" (probably the electrician.) If its two trades you're sunk. This inevitably leads to filed conflicts. Run from this or document it well that they will have to move for the modeled piping/equipment.

Coordination meetings never happened if you don't document the minuets. a quick " hey as discussed..." email with a screen shot or 2 makes a world of difference.

Model your EQ bracing. Make your bracing a one size fits all solution. Work with your reviewing engineer early and propose several worst case scenarios for your zones of influence and have all your bracing sized there. that way you're not digging around for 1 1/2'' pipe vs 1'' pipe braces. Also calculate several different angles if you can. Turn a calculated procedure in to a proscriptive one if that makes sense.

Chris Somer

12/21/2023 09:23:47 am

We try to coordinate everything! Navisworks is the best way to implement clash detection during the coord. process.

I use HydraCAD for all my model space work and then just import the .dwg into the .NWD file that the project usually keeps up to date.

Currently on a VA project that has both new construction and renovations. It helps when the GC/CM has a good coordination team that can scan existing buildings. I use all the coordinated files to easily make fab sheets for all the piping in the building.

We've done cost analysis on the jobs we coordinate/fab vs we just design and let them go in the field. We make significantly more profit on coord/fab jobs.

Any questions, let me know.

Tips for Coordinating Sprinklers in Navisworks?

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