MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • ABOUT
    • CATALOG
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT
Picture

Swing Joint or Flex Drop Required for Cloud?

2/28/2023

9 Comments

 
I'm working on a performing arts theater in California. There are floating clouds with pendents in them.

I seem to remember an inspector bringing up an NFPA requirement for either a swing joint or a flexible drop to connect to the pendent sprinkler. I can't find anything in the 2016 Edition of NFPA 13.

Is there a requirement for a swing joint or flexible drop for a cloud?

Could anyone provide a code reference?

Thanks in advance.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
9 Comments
Glenn Berger
2/28/2023 08:06:02 am

Recommend approved flexible hoses to be used to pipe to sprinklers in the floating (suspended) clouds.

Depending on where you are located in California, this requirement may come from the seismic section.

Reply
Anthony
2/28/2023 08:19:43 am

First off get the code excerpt whenever someone says there is a requirement you've never heard of. 9/10 times they mean "old Jimmy Fitterwise always said" the other 1/10 times you learn something.


I think they might be referring to the hanging requirements of pendants (see below). There is not requirement for sprinkler drops to be on any swing joint (back to back 90° fittings) and there is not a "must use flex drop" anywhere in code that I'm aware of. Also clouds have a habit of not being installed with extreme laser precision so the inspector might just mean its best practice not to design Stright drops to a cloud. I'd agree with that line of thinking; always build in flexibility when you can.


9.2.3.4.4* Unsupported Length with Maximum Pressure Exceeding 100 psi (6.9 bar) and Branch Line Above Ceiling Supplying Sprinklers in Pendent Position Below ceiling.

9.2.3.4.4.1 Where the maximum static or flowing pressure, whichever is greater at the sprinkler, applied other than through the fire department connection, exceeds 100 psi (6.9 bar) and a branch line above a ceiling supplies sprinklers in a pendent position below the ceiling, the hanger assembly supporting the pipe supplying an end sprinkler in a pendent position shall be of a type that prevents upward movement of the pipe.

9.2.3.4.4.2 The unsupported length between the end sprinkler in a pendent position or drop nipple and the last hanger on the branch line shall not be greater than 12 in. (300 mm)for steel pipe or 6 in. (150 mm) for copper pipe.


The person might be referring to a return bend and erroneously calling that a swing joint. Those are only required when 'raw' water is used. i.e. non potable water from a pond, river or otherwise.

Reply
Anthony
2/28/2023 08:51:45 am

Per some of the comments here I think perhaps the fitter is referring to 9.3.2.4

the Annex material goes on to say:

The horizontal relative displacement should be determined using the least value from one of the following formulas and be taken as the height of the top point of attachment to the storage rack above its base or the highest point of potential contact between the rack structure and the piping above its base, whichever is higher. The design should account for the differential movement value as determined from one of the two formulas, not both, and the lesser of the two values is acceptable. It should be determined how to account for the differential movement using flexible couplings or other ap-proved means.

Reply
Jess Lutz
2/28/2023 11:16:20 am

Hey, that "old Jimmy Fitterwise" has had some good information! LOL.
However, you are 100% correct...

QUESTION EVERYTHING!

Reply
Anthony
2/28/2023 12:42:58 pm

Today was a learning day :)

Glenn Warga
2/28/2023 08:29:09 am

This is most likely coming from the seismic section where you either have to have an oversize hole or on flex drop. The oversize hole may not be practical when dealing with concealed heads or some other type of decorative environment.

Reply
Ken Thackery
2/28/2023 10:44:06 am

Glenn,

The oversize hole is not required when using flex drops, only hard pipe and only in certain states. This is where you would use an "expansion plate/kydex ring". Ceiling code not sprinkler code.

If Berc clips are used on the grid edge no expansion plate/ring required.

ASCE7-05 Section 13.5.6.2.2
e. Except where rigid braces are used to limit lateral deflec-tions, sprinkler heads and other penetrations shall have a 2 in.(50 mm) oversize ring, sleeve, or adapter through the ceiling tile to allow for free movement of at least 1 in. (25 mm) inall horizontal directions. Alternatively, a swing joint that canaccommodate 1 in. (25 mm) of ceiling movement in all hori-zontal directions is permitted to be provided at the top of the sprinkler head extension.

NWCB Tech Doc 401
ASTM E580
ASCE 7-05

Reply
Ken Thackery
2/28/2023 10:59:33 am

© NORTHWEST WALL AND CEILING BUREAU
HEADQUARTERS
2825 Eastlake Ave E Ste 350 | Seattle, WA 98102
tel 206-524-4243 | email info@nwcb.org

This is what is accepted in Oregon and Washington, CA may be different.

Sprinklers
• For ceilings without rigid bracing, sprinkler head
penetrations shall have a 2 inch oversize ring, sleeve or
adapter through the ceiling tile to allow free movement of
at least 1 inch in all horizontal directions. Flexible head
design that can accommodate 1 inch free movement shall
be permitted as an alternate. Source: ASTM E580 Section 5.2.8.5

This document provides the IBC-2012 referenced standards for the installation of suspension systems for acoustical lay-in
ceilings. Incorporation of this document will provide a more uniform standard for installation and inspection. This document is
designed to accomplish the intent of the International Building Code (IBC) with regard to the requirements for seismic design
category D, E and F for suspended ceilings and related items. Unless supported by engineering, the suspension system shall be
installed per these requirements and those of the referenced documents. Manufacturers’ recommendations should be followed
where applicable.

Dan Wilder
2/28/2023 09:24:20 am

Nothing within NFPA specifically, this falls over to the IBC/ICC for requirements which transition back into Chapter 9, however there may be local amendments concerning different parts of the building moving independently of each other that would require some sort of separation/movement via flex hoses (seems a little too specific of a requirement). Flex hoses are not listed for a seismic separation application (think Metraflex), only to remove the oversized hole requirement for the penetration within the ceiling to avoid damage to the sprinkler from impact to the ceiling.

Flexhead Submittal Page 4 - https://www.cmdgroup.com/documents/FS/catalogs/Flexhead_CA_Commercial%20Fire%20Sprinkler%20Connections%20%20Submittal%20Package.pdf

Flexible hoses are not required, they are just an alternate means to additional restraint and oversize holes.

https://www.pmengineer.com/articles/85192-new-seismic-fire-sprinkler-regulations

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    ALL-ACCESS

    Picture
    GET ALL OUR TOOLS

    SUBSCRIBE

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    COMMUNITY

    Top ​Feb 2023 Contributors
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    YOUR POST

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    PE EXAM

    Get 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
    SIGN ME UP!

    FILTERS

    All
    A117.1
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    ASTM E1354
    Daily Discussion
    Design Documents
    EN 12845
    Explosion Protection & Prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable & Combustible LIquids
    FM Global
    Human Behavior
    IBC
    ICC-500
    IFC
    IMC
    IPC
    IRC
    ISO
    Means Of Egress
    NBC
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 1142
    NFPA 1221
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 16
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 220
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 241
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 30B
    NFPA 33
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 409
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 495
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 55
    NFPA 654
    NFPA 68
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 701
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 75
    NFPA 770
    NFPA 82
    NFPA 855
    NFPA 90A
    NFPA 92
    NFPA 96
    NICET
    OBC
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management
    Special Hazard Systems
    UFC 3 600 01
    UFC 3-600-01
    UFC 4-021-01
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    ARCHIVES

    March 2023
    February 2023
    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    September 2022
    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016


    PE PREP SERIES

    Fire Protection PE Exam Prep
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    RSS Feed

Picture
​Home
Our Cause
The Blog
The Forum
PE Exam Prep
The Toolkit

MeyerFire University
​Pricing
Login
​Support
Contact Us
Picture

MeyerFire.com is a startup community built to help fire protection professionals shine.
Our goal is to improve fire protection practices worldwide. We promote the industry by creating helpful tools and resources, and by bringing together industry professionals to share their expertise.

​MeyerFire, LLC is an International Code Council Preferred Education Provider.

All text, images, and media ​Copyright © 2023 MeyerFire, LLC

We respect your privacy and personal data. See our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. 
The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

Discussions are solely for the purpose of peer review and the exchange of ideas. All comments are reviewed. Comments which do not contribute, are not relevant, are spam, or are disrespectful in nature may be removed. Information presented and opinions expressed should not be relied upon as a replacement for consulting services. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a small commission for orders placed elsewhere.

  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • ABOUT
    • CATALOG
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT