Sprinkler Line Through Elevator Machine Room?

7/9/2019

Are you allowed to run a branch line through an elevator machine room? ASME 17.1 Section 2.8.2.3 clearly states that you can. Section 2.8.2.3.1 disallows only risers and returns. Am I missing something?

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9 Comments

Mike

7/9/2019 10:13:02 am

I don't have the text you refer to but in my experience you cannot run through it - i.e. enter and exit. Can only extend the fire sprinkler line into it.

Wayne Ammons

7/9/2019 11:06:14 am

I can't find anything that says you cannot run sprinkler piping through an elevator machine room. I do know that you CAN run sprinkler piping through an electrical room as long as you do not enter the dedicated electrical space or the working space of the electrical equipment. NFPA 13 added text and annex material to clarify this in the 2019 edition (section 9.2.6). Hopefully, someone familiar with ASME 17.1 can give some additional input.

Dan Wilder

7/9/2019 12:01:16 pm

ASME A17.1 Rules 2.8.3.3, 2.8.3.4, 2.8.3.5 (check your local adoptions and modifications)

-Sprinkler protection shall supply only branch lines into the machine/control room or control space
-Pipes or ducts conveying gases, vapors, or liquids that do not pertain to the elevator are prohibited
-Pipes (i.e. sprinkler) or similar equipment that contains liquid shall not be located directly above elevator or electrical equipment. Pipes shall not encroach upon any required clearances

Wayne Ammons

7/9/2019 12:33:11 pm

Dan, is there any annex material for the first rule "...shall supply only branch lines into..."? Does the word "into" imply that the branch line cannot pass through the room?

Dan Wilder

7/9/2019 06:01:17 pm

I only have some handouts that an elevator sub gave to me a while back. I don't own a full book so I can't speak to what they define as a Branch Line.

Mitchell O'Bryant

7/11/2019 10:54:07 am

Text from ASME A17.1 (2010)
2.8.3.1.2 - All risers and return pipes shall be located outside the hoistway. When the machinery space, machine room, control space, or control room is located above the roof of the building, heating pipes for the machinery space, machine room, control space, or control room shall be permitted to be located in the hoistway between the top floor and the machinery space, machine room, control space, or control room.

2.8.3.3 - Sprinkler systems conforming to NFPA 13 or the NBCC, shall be installed in the hoistway, machinery space, machine room, control space, or control roof subject to 2.8.3.3.1 through 2.8.3.3.4.

2.8.3.3.1 - All risers shall be located outside these spaces. Branch lines in the hoistway shall supply sprinklers at not more than one floor level. When the machinery spaces, machine room, control space, or control room is located above the roof of the building, risers and branch lines for these sprinklers shall be permitted to be located in the hoistway between the top floor and the machinery space, machine room, control space, or control room.

2.8.3.4 - Other pipes or ducts conveying gases, vapors, or liquid and not used in connection with the operation of the elevator shall not be installed in any hoistway, machinery space, machine room, control space, or control room. (It goes on to talk about above roof line spaces).

My take - I don't have a section 2.8.2.3 that you reference (likely different versions), but if the branch line is serving another space and simply routed through the machine room for convenience, I do not believe this is permitted.

Steven Lopez link

7/15/2019 03:48:21 pm

Upon further review I contacted our local state inspection office and asked for their interpretation of the code (I'm in California). They referenced Title 8 Industrial Relations code section 3012 (b); link here: - https://www.dir.ca.gov/Title8/3012.html
It reads very similarly to ASME A17.1 which can be found online here: https://ia800302.us.archive.org/26/items/gov.law.asme.a17.1.2004/asme.a17.1.2004.pdf

Ultimately they agreed that their was no where in the code that explicitly did not allow sprinkler pipe to pass through the machine room. However they informed me that the majority of all inspectors would flag it regardless and not allow it; as this has been common practice since the 80's.

Sarah Maman P.E.

7/14/2020 07:49:11 pm

A client of mine (sprinkler contractor) was having an disagreement with the elevator AHJ about running sprinkler piping through an elevator machine room. I did a web search and came across your discussion on the matter. I agree that there is nothing in ASME 17.1 that would not permit sprinkler piping in an elevator machine room. Here is the entire text of this section of ASME 17.1-2007.

SECTION 2.8
EQUIPMENT IN HOISTWAYS, MACHINERY SPACES,
MACHINE ROOMS, CONTROL SPACES, AND
CONTROL ROOMS
2.8.1 Equipment Allowed
Only machinery and equipment used directly in connection
with the elevator shall be permitted in elevator
hoistways, machinery spaces, machine rooms, control
spaces, and control rooms.
2.8.2 Electrical Equipment and Wiring
2.8.2.1 Installation of electrical equipment and
wiring shall conform to NFPA 70 or CSA-C22.1, whichever
is applicable (see Part 9).
2.8.2.2 Only such electrical wiring, raceways,
cables, coaxial wiring, and antennas used directly in
connection with the elevator, including wiring for signals,
for communication with the car, for lighting, heating,
air conditioning, and ventilating the car, for fire
detecting systems, for pit sump pumps, and for heating
and lighting the hoistway and/or the machinery space,
machine room, control space, or control room shall be
permitted to be installed inside the hoistway, machinery
space, machine room, control space, or control room.
2.8.2.3 Bonding conductors from the lightning protection
system grounding down conductor to long vertical
metal bodies in the hoistway such as elevator rails
and vertical wireways shall be permitted to be installed
in the hoistway as required by NFPA 780, or
CAN/CSA-B72, whichever is applicable (see Part 9). The
lightning protection system grounding down conductor
shall not be permitted in the hoistway, and the elevator
rails shall not be used as the lightning protection system
grounding down conductor. Bonding conductors
installed in the hoistway shall not interfere with the
operation of the elevator.
2.8.3 Pipes, Ducts, Tanks, and Sprinklers
2.8.3.1 Steam and hot-water pipes shall be permitted
to be installed in hoistways, machinery spaces,
machine rooms, control spaces, and control rooms for the
purpose of heating these areas only, subject to 2.8.3.1.1
through 2.8.3.1.3.
2.8.3.1.1 Heating pipes shall convey only
low-pressure steam [100 kPa (15 psi) or less] or hotwater
[100°C (212°F) or less].
2.8.3.1.2 All risers and return pipes shall be
located outside the hoistway. When the machinery
space, machine room, control space, or control room is
located above the roof of the building, heating pipes for
the machinery space, machine room, control space, or
control room shall be permitted to be located in the
hoistway between the top floor and the machinery space,
machine room, control space, or control room.
2.8.3.1.3 Traps and shutoff valves shall be provided
in accessible locations outside the hoistway.
2.8.3.2 Ducts shall be permitted to be installed in
the hoistway, machinery space, machine room, control
space, or control room for the purpose of heating, cooling,
ventilating, and venting these areas only and shall
not encroach upon the required clearances.
2.8.3.3 Sprinkler systems conforming to NFPA 13
or the NBCC, whichever is applicable (see Part 9), shall
be permitted to be installed in the hoistway, machinery
space, machine room, control space, or control room
subject to 2.8.3.3.1 through 2.8.3.3.4.
2.8.3.3.1 All risers and returns shall be located
outside these spaces. Branch lines in the hoistway shall
supply sprinklers at not more than one floor level. When
the machinery space, machine room, control space, or
control room is located above the roof of the building,
risers, return pipes, and branch lines for these sprinklers
the top floor and the machinery space, machine room,
control space, or control room.
2.8.3.3.2 In jurisdictions not enforcing the
NBCC, where elevator equipment is located or its enclosure
is configured such that application of water from
sprinklers could cause unsafe elevator operation, means
shall be provided to automatically disconnect the main
line power supply to the affected elevator and any other
power supplies used to move the elevator upon or prior
to the application of water.
(a) This means shall be independent of the elevator
control and shall not be self-resetting.
(b) Heat detectors and sprinkler flow switches used to
initiate main line elevator power shutdown shall comply
with the requirements of NFPA 72.
(c) The activation of sprinklers outside of such locations
shall not disconnect the main line elevator power
supply. See also 2.27.3.3.6.
2.8.3.3.3 Smoke detectors shall not be used to
activate sprinklers in these spaces or to disconnect the
main line power supply.
2.8.3.3.4 In jurisdictions not enforcing the
NBCC, when sprinklers are installed not more than
600 mm (24 in.) above the pit floor, 2.8.3.3.4(a) and (b)
apply to elevator electrical equipment and wiring in

Jonathan Sullivan

8/4/2020 12:36:09 pm

Sarah - what was the result of your conversation?

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