Placard for Old Pipe Schedule System w/o Calcs?

7/17/2023

I am running into a lot of old systems that do not have hydraulic placard and some of them are old Pipe Schedule system.

Has anyone ran into an old pipe schedule system were the fire marshal is requesting hydraulic placards and if so has anyone found a way to satisfy the requirements without surveying the entire system and running new calculations?

Thanks in advance.

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10 Comments

Matthew Mueller link

7/17/2023 08:08:26 am

NFPA 25 2023 (and earlier) states: 5.2.5.2 A pipe schedule system shall have a hydraulic design information sign that reads “Pipe Schedule System.”

If you're reasonably sure based on head counts and pipe size that it is a scheduled system, this could be a simple solution.

Glenn Berger

7/17/2023 08:23:34 am

I am in agreement with Matt. But before you put the placard on the system I recommend walking the system to see if the system is still in compliance with NFPA 13.

Ralph K Foster III link

7/18/2023 08:39:57 am

Glenn - NFPA 25 does not require verification that an existing system meets NFPA 13. An NFPA 25 inspection is verification that the system is being maintained properly. Verifying the existing system meet the code it was installed under is outside the scope of NFPA 25.

NFPA 25 makes you comment relevant if a change of occupancy or use has occurred. The fire official will also request such verification when a substantial renovation to the the building happens.

You point to verify the system meets code does have legal merit depending on how your scope of work is crafted. There are some cases where the person reviewing the facility is considers "knowledgeable" and has an obligation to inform the owner of noncompliance they saw. Which is why having a well defined scope of work is so vial in our industry.

Jason Carroll

7/17/2023 08:44:12 am

Once we have verified it is a pipe schedule system, we make a placard that states "pipe schedule system" as Matt mentioned and hang it on the riser. So far, we have not had any issues with it.

A. Wiseman

7/17/2023 08:52:31 am

I agree with Matt and Glenn. If you install a General Information sign in place of a Hydraulic placard, there is a place to indicate a pipe schedule system.

https://www.safetysign.com/images/source/medium-images/SPR-19ALM.e9bc70c6c71947e1af12c284f1b07c64.png

Dan Wilder

7/17/2023 08:58:54 am

NFPA 25-23' 5.2.5.2 -A pipe schedule system shall have a hydraulic design information sign that reads “Pipe Schedule System.”

If that was the original design criteria, then any evaluation of the system would be based on that criterion based solely on a requirement from NFPA 25. If there was an occupancy change or other trigger that would require a design review, separate issue and outside the scope of NFPA 25 as it relates to the placard missing. Example would be (one of my jurisdictions has this in their fire code), change out of sprinklers at the 50 year mark would trigger a hydraulic design review (the permit that needs to be pulled allows that AHJ to require the additional).

Little history.
This showed up in the 2014 Edition, in the ROP Page 25-14 with an example of what the intent of the sign would look like. I didn't look too much further as to why the annex didn't keep the picture example like the hydraulic example.

https://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/25/25-A2013-ROP.pdf

Anthony

7/17/2023 09:16:05 am

A functional system does not need to meet current code it needs to meet the code it was installed at. I'm curious what your involvement is with an existing system and the fire marshal?

I'd want some documentations somewhere that the system is a pipe schedule system or the year it was designed to. Otherwise I'd make sure it meets current pipe schedule performance as outlined in your year of code. NFPA 13 - ch23.7 (2016) ch 27.5(2019) ch28.5 (2022)

I have recertified old schedule systems to current standards and we just place a placard stating the year of code we rate the schedule to. "Pipe schedule system per NFPA 13-2016. minimum pressure at BOR xx.x psi"

MANUEL DE LA TORRE

1/6/2025 02:33:43 pm

Hi Anthony,

I would like to discuss the possibility of you recertifying our fire sprinkler system. We are a nursing facility, we had our annual survey and the surveyor requested the hydraulic plate.

The building was build in the before 1980 and we can not locate a hydraulic plate. We have a pipe schedule system and would like to prove to the state surveyor that a hydraulic plate is not required.
Can you please contact me Manuel De La Torre @ 818-903-1705. The building is located in phoenix az.

Jesse

7/17/2023 09:50:15 am

I would indicate which pipe schedule it was. OHPS / LHPS, or even a long time ago EHPS

Pete H

7/17/2023 12:44:44 pm

I like this. This seems like extremely relevant information.

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Placard for Old Pipe Schedule System w/o Calcs?

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