How to Address Missing Hydraulic Placard?

3/2/2020

NFPA 25 requires a legible Hydraulic Information Sign.

How do I replace a missing Hydraulic Placard (or calculation plate/card) on an existing system? And what if there isn't original design information available?

I'm curious to see how others are addressing this deficiency.

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25 Comments

Matthew King

3/2/2020 10:14:16 am

The insurer usually wants/photos the placard. Find out who the previous owners were and track down the insurer

Jonathan Griffin

3/2/2020 10:14:19 am

Your choices:
1. Find as-built submittals that have the Flow Summary Sheet available (from the client hopefully)
2. Perform an analysis of the piping system and hazards; and then obtain a fire flow from the nearest Hydrant, then perform a calculation of your own. Use this information to fill in the placard.

Dan Wilder

3/2/2020 10:23:24 am

We follow this method as well but in the absence of original design info, we will preface that if the design does not calculate (for a flow test deficiency or an occupancy that does not work with the installed sprinkler system), we will not provide the placard.

3/2/2020 10:52:13 am

Do you use the most current edition of NFPA 13 or do you use the edition of NFPA 13 that was used at the time of the original design/installation?

Jeremy James

3/2/2020 10:26:02 am

As a contractor, we often run into this issue after an inspection. Typically, we would approach the owner for as-builts, but they are rarely onsite (if there's no placard, you probably won't find a print). We would offer the service of a designer to reverse layout the system with a field survey and then perform a calculation for the placards. This can become pricey for the customer, depending on the structure and if pipe is exposed or above ceilings.

3/2/2020 11:22:51 am

Since you only need the require gpm and psi at the base of the riser can’t you perform the hydraulic calculation without a flow test and save the customer some monies
This data is needed for your drain test

Imran Mahmood

5/5/2022 12:53:03 am

We have the original calculation sheet but placard is missing.
How much will be the cost to install a placard.
Thanks
Imran

Jonathan Joseph

3/2/2020 11:17:04 am

If you cant track down the prints through the company that installed, or AHJ.

I would field survey design as Jeremy said.

Perform a Flow Test with a pitot reading for GPM's and residual pressure, Identify all sprinklers, hazards, occupancy for a head calc. The layout of sprinklers should be easy to confirm the spacing since typically designers will max everything out.

The important thing is to get new numbers at the riser location. Hopefully you can dig up some former flow test to compare.

Peter

3/2/2020 03:00:39 pm

Why do you need to perform a flow test? You're not providing a curve. NFPA 25, 2014 and later requires that the system have a hydraulic data plate on it if it is pipe scheduled or hydraulically calculated and that plate be secure and legible. NFPA 13, 2013 25.5.2 doesn't require flow test info either. The hydraulic data plate dictates the requirements of the system. Additionally, most hydraulic data plate signs don't have a spot for the water flow test information, I know the ones we use don't. The general information sign has information about the water flow test.

As an aside, we do the same as what most others describe above. Ask for a copy of the As-Built records first. If those aren't there, we survey the building by popping ceiling tiles, cut in to drywall or get into attics (this is a messy and costly endeavor) and reverse design the hydraulic need. This has been interesting, because in some cases after modifications to the spaces (like office remodels, tenant build outs) where hydraulic calculations were not performed by the tenant improvement contractor, we've caught where the psi at the base of the riser to provide for the system is now > 100psi and there is no fire pump on the system. We usually see this when contractors just keep adding heads on to small diameter piping like 9 heads coming off 1" pipe. Those have been less than fun conversations with the owner.

Jonathan Joseph

3/2/2020 04:28:15 pm

I don't think you are getting the original question and concern.

How do I replace a missing Hydraulic Placard (or calculation plate/card) on an existing system? And what if there isn't original design information available?

25.5.2 (2016) The sign shall include the following information:
(1) Location of the design area or areas
(2) Discharge densities over the design area or areas
(3) Required flow and residual pressure demand at the base of the riser
(4) Occupancy classification or commodity classification and maximum permitted storage
height and configuration
(5) Hose stream allowance included in addition to the sprinkler demand
(6) The name of the installing contractor

Peter

3/2/2020 04:39:09 pm

Jonathan,

I think we may be misunderstanding each other here. The question asked was how to re-create the sign. I was stating that you don't need to perform a flow test to re-create the hydraulic information sign. As both you and I stated the relevant section of NFPA 13, it doesn't state the requirement to place a flow test on the sign.

Jonathan Joseph

3/2/2020 06:39:51 pm

Correct LOL

This whole thing can be costly especially if its old. Hopefully there is an attic or exposed on the upper level to make it a little easier to survey the system.

I just have a feeling AHJ is going to want everything updated.

Dan Wilder

3/3/2020 07:29:26 am

@NK

Without some specific information such as the year of the adopted code when the system was approved, any agreements/acceptance alternatives/exclusions based on the original install, we perform the analysis based on the currently adopted codes adopted by the AHJ. However, we are very specific to state that the design does not constitute an engineering review of the entire system for compliance (spacing, hanging, bracing but if we see issues while performing the original agreed upon scope of work, we will write it up separately under due diligence), we are simply providing a hydraulic placard for the assumed hydraulically most remote area.

We are not (unless it's in our approved scope) reviewing the entire building's installation compliance. Most owners don't want anything more than the minimum to get them their continued CofO.

Mike

3/5/2020 01:58:01 am

How or why would you need to provide a hydraulic calc plate if the system was pipe scheduled?

Peter

3/5/2020 06:22:22 am

Starting with the 2014 edition of NFPA 25. If the system is pipe scheduled, there needs to be a hydraulic information sign that says it is pipe scheduled.

See NFPA 25, 2014: 5.2.6.2

Adding a sign that says it is pipe scheduled is problematic because you can't really just look at a system and ensure it is pipe scheduled. The only way we will say a system is pipe scheduled is if we find plans that show it was pipe scheduled. Considering NFPA 13 has required systems to be hydraulically calculated for quite some time, by nature those pipe scheduled systems would be quite old and thus the plans for it could be difficult or impossible to locate. If we can't find the plans, we calculate the system.

Ramon

5/21/2020 11:16:14 pm

You can do a survey and find out if it is a pipe schedule system or not... Just by looking the pipe...

antonio

8/16/2021 02:40:45 pm

so, can we assume if the building is pre 2014 a Hydraulic name plate is not necessary ?

Mike Magwire Sr.

8/18/2021 11:05:47 am

I am interested in your reply to Antonio's recent question as to the
pre 2014 requirement for hydraulic data plate.

My question pertains to a system built in the mid 80's.
Is it required by the NFPA 13 to have this is place or are we
grandfathered?

Peter

8/18/2021 11:34:17 am

For some reason I can't "reply' to Antonio's comment as the button doesn't appear.

From my understanding of the language and the intent, is that if the state, municpality, and/or AHJ has adopted the 2014 or later version of NFPA 25, then you must retroactively add a hydraulic design information sign. If the system was not hydraulically calculated originally, then installing the sign and writing "Pipe Schedule System" on it is sufficient.

Since NFPA 25 is a retroactive standard, it is applied to all systems, regardless of when they were installed (even if it was in the 1980s or earlier). This can be problematic as though even the system may have been installed prior to hydraulic calculations being available or required, you still need to do the research. Often with these older buildings, we just calculate the system as we can't find copies of old plans let alone any plan that indicates it was definitively pipe scheduled.

Daniel H Raap link

12/17/2021 01:31:03 pm

Hello - I have a related question with a healthcare client (hospital) that has Sprinkler Systems installed form the early 1970's. They keep receiving Deficiencies for not having a Hydraulic Name Plate on the sprinkler system.

I believe there system is Pipe Scheduled and will be verifying that shortly. In the meantime, since CMS currently has adopted the 2012 Edition of NFPA 101 and in turn also the 2011 Edition of NFPA 25, and this is what The Joint Commission follows for their accreditation standards for Healthcare Facilities; if the requirements for Hydraulic Placards first became a requirement in 2014, is this still required or can the deficiency be removed entirely or at least moved into a recommendation category instead of a deficiency? Thank you! Daniel Raap

Naveed

10/12/2021 05:28:40 pm

Related question: We have some old buildings with domestic water line coming and then splitting into fire and potable water lines. Now we are bringing in separate fire water and need to know flow rate and pressure required for the sprinkler line. No as-built, placard is available. How can we find the required info? Is there a simple way to do it?

Mark link

10/11/2022 02:42:36 pm

We are missing the placard for the Sprinkler System Control Valve riser. Every attempt has been made to contact and locate paperwork. Everything is negative. New Insurance carrier requiring we replace placard. What would it cost and who would I go through tp have this completed?

Joe Meyer

10/12/2022 10:28:01 am

Hi Mark,

Typically the best place to start is a local fire sprinkler contractor or a local consulting firm who has a Fire Protection Engineer onboard.

My guess is that you'll have more luck getting pricing and capable parties with a local fire sprinkler contractor. They'll have to trace the system and "reverse engineer" what is already there into a new set of calculations for the placard.

Hope this helps, thanks!

Joe

Peter

10/12/2022 02:43:35 pm

If you can't locate sprinkler drawings of the existing system you'll need to have the sprinkler system re-calculated. This can be relatively easy or incredibly complex depending upon a multitude of factors. For example, a 3 story residential building has a relatively simple calculation procedure, but it may mean making access holes if there is no attic space to see the direction of the pipe, pipe type, pipe size, etc.

Bruce Powelson

12/30/2022 05:45:57 pm

The system was installed 2011. I have a print of the approved plans from Department of Building Micro fiche signed off with approval stamps and hydraulic information on the face sheet. I have contacted the installing contractor by using their license number. Our insurance Company wants a Hydraulic Plate. The original contractor wants $450.00 for the plate, which seems a little like black mail. Are there any alternatives.

How to Address Missing Hydraulic Placard?

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