MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • About
    • Catalog
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT
Picture

How Best to Actually Fight Electric Vehicle Fires?

10/14/2022

18 Comments

 
With electric vehicles taking the world by storm, how do you anticipate killing fires on these vehicles?

What elements are crucial on the firefighting side?

Battery explosions can happen anytime and anywhere, but what measures should be considered?

A wide question I know, but this is something I'm battling with as an AHJ. Thanks in advance.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
18 Comments
Chad
10/14/2022 08:20:20 am

You cannot extinguish the battery cells as they let go and form a jet fire. Period, full stop. Doesn't matter if its a car or a scooter.

For hybrids, you just let them blow out and extinguish it like a regular car fire afterwards.

The full electric ones are the real problem.


Again, you are NOT putting it out while the cells let go, the flammable electrolyte in the batteries is too volatile once heated.

Sprinklers may keep it in check in a building but you will have to drag the car out and let it burn to a point its manageable. These fires are going to ruin whole floors of other cars. Its a crap sandwich.


If you can keep the battery pack cool enough to prevent thermal runaway to adjacent cells it still leaves with a hazard. The prevailing fix is to flood the battery case with salt water. easier said than done. One idea is to get the car (assuming the battery case is relatively intact) into a container and fill it a foot or two. The salt water will discharge the cells and keep them cool while that happens. Otherwise it may just keep rekindling itself.

Reply
Dan Wilder
10/14/2022 08:21:03 am

This is more for the technology as a whole, not specific to just cars however...but to short answer you, lots of water for suppression, getting the battery pack(s) isolated/discharged if possible, and thermal runaway/off-gassing stopped.

On a larger scale

First step will be at the cell or pack battery level (either by the MFG or specialty 3rd party contractors) using something like Aqueous Vermiculite Dispersion or similar new tech chemical integrated into the battery casing or added on after. Maybe there will be some new approach to kill the electrolyte solution in the case of thermal runaway and prevent any further damage (think those hot/cold smack packs to change the composition of the solution*).

https://www.avdfire.com/

Next is on the suppression level where is just going to be putting a lot of water on and around the fire to prevent spread. While water is the most basic level of protection, things like gaseous discharge are problematic for high traffic areas for containment and preserving concentration levels (not to mention the life safety aspect for people in the area). Water mist (localized) can also be helpful (with N2), to prevent some spread but the same issue with keeping concentrations.

Alternate approaches like vehicle fire blankets are useful for the one-off events, but not in close proximity areas and you run into the training of personnel.

https://vehiclefireblanket.com/

Ventilation/detection is crucial during the event and post incident to avoid issues like back draft explosions (search APS battery explosion) and/or toxic chemical off-gas build ups.

Other issue is reignition after the fact which many of my local AHJ's have started making the repair/salvage yards put the cars in separate areas, within containment berms or large clear distances until the battery packs can be pulled and then separated/isolated again.

*if you are way smarter than me on a chemical level and that gave you an idea, just hook me up with a little royalty nod...

Reply
chad putney
10/14/2022 08:36:29 am

Salt water after, its the most effective mitigation if you still have cells intact. Vermiculite is hoping to insulate and delay propagation/thermal runaway in adjacent cells. Its not great do to the pack densities.

Reply
Jacob
10/14/2022 08:24:16 am

I came across this article the other day. It shows using a giant fireproof blanket to smother the fire. It's not exactly an "automatic" method like a sprinkler system, but it does seem efficient in terms of resources, ease of transport, etc. Though to be fair, I don't know how these blankets are constructed.

The comments offer some interesting ideas as well.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/could-a-giant-fireproof-blanket-be-the-solution-for-stubborn-ev-battery-fires

Reply
chad
10/14/2022 08:34:24 am

They will slow the fire and confine it....briefly. It also requires two people to get right next to the burning vehicle. A lot of hotel franchises are pushing this as a bridge until the fire department shows up. But its a losing battle when its inside.

Reply
Max, R
10/14/2022 08:27:07 am

“In each of the six full-scale burn tests, firefighters at the test site found that they needed to flow large amounts of water on the batteries, because fire kept flaring up even after it appeared to be extinguished. In one test, a battery fire reignited 22 hours after it was thought to be extinguished. Telsa even has a special Guide for emergency response. here is the Scary part.


"Battery fires can take up to 24 hours to extinguish. Consider
allowing the battery to burn while protecting exposures."

Reply
chad
10/14/2022 08:31:48 am

My point exactly... you have to get the car out of the structure. Its often better to let it burn than extinguish once there are no exposures. As uncomfortable as that is for most FD's. Of course in denser urban areas this may not be possible. So you have to flood it... but the run off is now a hazmat situation. And you have to tie up a fire engine or three for up to 24 hours.

Reply
Max, R
10/14/2022 08:53:28 am

This is where regulations will need to step in.
Requiring any vehicle or vehicles parked stored, or charged indoor or to adjacent structures be in or provided a appropriate fire rating material be used or space provided for. issue comes in municipalities encouraging businesses to place the large volt multi vehicle charging stations in close proximity to the structures. As a rural firefighter myself I shake my head when i pass a charging station within 10" to 15" of a restaurant with no easily visible electrical cut off.

chad
10/14/2022 08:57:42 am

Agreed, treat them like transformers, separate with 3 hour constrictions and add dedicated smoke control. But that is so pricy it will never fly.

I've got brand new subbasement parking garages with EV charging stations and there is nothing in the code (besides the imminent hazard or the AHJ is god card using NFPA 1) that will allow us to prevent it. Moreover, its politically unpopular to speak ill of EV in any form, no matter how dangerous they are right now.

Frustrating.

Reply
Aaron
10/14/2022 10:20:12 am

If Elon Musk build it I'm sure he could fix it!

Reply
Danial Bartle
10/14/2022 10:33:49 am

Here is some information from Fire Fighters Close Calls and Chief Billy Goldfeder. There was a symposium in NY on these types of calls. It is a google drive link to presentations, information, and some contacts at NFPA

Here is additional and updated information from the FDNY and the google drive: Lithium-Ion Batteries: Challenges for the Fire Service.
The FDNY foundation symposium was presented with our partners from the NFPA and UL’s Fire Safety Research Institute.
The Symposium Google Drive includes:

-Presentation Summaries and videos.
-Instructor Bio’s
-Additional training offerings from UL’s FRSI & NFPA
-Vendor and product information discussed during the symposium & who supported the symposium.
-FDNY Publications including “Tips From Training” WNYF articles, training videos and FDNY Pro Podcasts.

The FDNY and its partners are presenting this material to inform the community about this new challenge for the fire service.

HERE IS THE LINK:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zG1se9zzFwlPk-0QS0R8llfftjxY4UdT

Some phenomenal information that applies to each and everyone of us, our departments and those we protect.
Take Care. Be Careful. Pass It On.
9/17/2022-1508 Hours via
www.FireFighterCloseCalls.com

Reply
Franck
10/15/2022 03:32:00 am

Many thanks Danial for sharing this very useful information.

There's so much to learn on this growing concern.

I was at a nuclear facility in Europe this week and the Fire Chief was experiencing some issues with the installation of new charging stations for electric vehicles. As a firefighter he was concerned for possible battery fires and not having these charging stations too close the buildings and important structures.
But he has bad time fighting against the Managament as "Electric vehicles are the future". Sic !
At the moment, the only additional equipment he has is one fire blanket in the fire truck... In case something happens !
And he is concerned about the future situation when more and more EV will be present on site.

In China, where over one third of the world's electrified fleet of vehicles, there are approximately 7 battery electric car fire per day since the bginning of 2022 !

https://batteriesnews.com/7-battery-electric-cars-day-catch-fire-china-most-involved-brands/

Reply
Mike
10/14/2022 10:37:55 am

Dumb sand on them. Huge amounts. Highly impractical for a municipal brigade or automatic system. Maybe Purple K but it seems obvious water is not the solution.

Reply
Franck
10/15/2022 10:09:53 am

Unfortunately, water (huge amount for a long duration) is the only practical solution so far.

Puts firefighters at risk, blocks circulation for hours, does not prevent possible further reignition, does not prevent fully the thermal runaway nor the emission of toxic gases... But what else ?

This is a situation where the hazard is known but the perfect remediation is not.

Reply
Franck
10/14/2022 11:28:40 am

With current battery technology there is no satisfactory answer.
Once it started, it requires huge amount of water. And once extinguished, well it could start again several hours after. It happened on a towing truck (hours after extinguishment) and deposit yard (sometimes more than 24 h after).
Fire blanket is fine if only one vehicle involved, no car parked aside and put the firefighters at risk if the thermal runaway happens. And only as a “temporary” solution until huge amounts of water is available.
In the Netherland, the firefighting procedure is to bring a container full of water and put the car inside.
In France, Renault (a car manufacturer) provides 2 access point (thermal elements that open a hole) to flow water directly on the battery area.
In Belgium, firefighters have asked to ban electric vehicles from closed parking structures. Same in some cities in Germany.
But no miraculous solution.
Maybe the next battery technology?
In the meantime: growing concern as more and more EV are on the market.

Reply
Rick Boisvert
10/14/2022 03:29:22 pm

Check out this resource from the International Association of Fire Chiefs. You have to click on the document to download it. They are also working on one for fixed ESS systems

https://www.iafc.org/topics-and-tools/resources/resource/fire-department-response-to-electrical-vehicle-fires

Reply
James Art, FPE
10/19/2022 11:38:50 am

The links to NY presentations look great.
But when I looked, I didn't have the audio?
IS it there?
How do I hear the presentations?

AND many EV's have battery disconnects, should know where.

Reply
Janet Washburn
10/19/2022 01:08:00 pm

I'm on the West Coast of Florida. The State Fire Marshal and IAFF presented an excellent webinar today on EV fires as we've experienced many of them with the plethora of submerged vehicles. Here is the link:

https://click11.bigmarker.com/links/bOejMk15irQ/fb9pfXK4a/ilEfrMSyLpx/zm5C2Owq8y?redirect_to=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bigmarker.com%2FFireChiefs%2FResponse-to-Electrical-Vehicle-EVs-Battery-Incidents-After-Hurricane-Incident%3Fbmid%3Dff5e2958ab42

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    ALL-ACCESS

    Picture
    GET ALL OUR TOOLS

    SUBSCRIBE

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    COMMUNITY

    Top ​Jan 2023 Contributors
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    YOUR POST

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    PE EXAM

    Get 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
    SIGN ME UP!

    FILTERS

    All
    A117.1
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    ASTM E1354
    Daily Discussion
    Design Documents
    EN 12845
    Explosion Protection & Prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable & Combustible LIquids
    FM Global
    Human Behavior
    IBC
    ICC-500
    IFC
    IMC
    IPC
    IRC
    ISO
    Means Of Egress
    NBC
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 1142
    NFPA 1221
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 16
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 220
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 241
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 33
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 409
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 495
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 55
    NFPA 654
    NFPA 68
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 701
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 75
    NFPA 82
    NFPA 855
    NFPA 90A
    NFPA 92
    NFPA 96
    NICET
    OBC
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management
    Special Hazard Systems
    UFC 3 600 01
    UFC 3-600-01
    UFC 4-021-01
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    ARCHIVES

    February 2023
    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    September 2022
    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016


    PE PREP SERIES

    Fire Protection PE Exam Prep
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    RSS Feed

Picture
​Home
Our Cause
The Blog
The Forum
PE Exam Prep
The Toolkit

MeyerFire University
​Pricing
Login
​Support
Contact Us
Picture

MeyerFire.com is a startup community built to help fire protection professionals shine.
Our goal is to improve fire protection practices worldwide. We promote the industry by creating helpful tools and resources, and by bringing together industry professionals to share their expertise.

​MeyerFire, LLC is an International Code Council Preferred Education Provider.

All text, images, and media ​Copyright © 2022 MeyerFire, LLC

We respect your privacy and personal data. See our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. 
The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

Discussions are solely for the purpose of peer review and the exchange of ideas. All comments are reviewed. Comments which do not contribute, are not relevant, are spam, or are disrespectful in nature may be removed. Information presented and opinions expressed should not be relied upon as a replacement for consulting services. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a small commission for orders placed elsewhere.

  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • About
    • Catalog
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT