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Hanger Needed for Hard Pipe with Flex Armover?

12/12/2022

16 Comments

 
We are converting approximately 100 extended coverage, ordinary hazard upright sprinklers (off of a 1x3/4 bushing) to standard spray chrome pendents (light hazard).

The ceilings are approximately 6'-0" below the existing branchlines at the deck.

We are planning to use "2-Stage" drops where we add a 1" double elbow ( with a 1" close nipple) off the branchline, then drop down about 5'-0" to get down near the ceiling and terminate this with a 1" plugged elbow.

Then when the time comes, we will add a flexible sprinkler connector to this and fix the sprinkler in the suspended ceiling (ASTM C635 & C636).
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If I use a 72" flexible connector, I understand I don't need a hanger per 17.4.1.3.3.3 (NFPA 13 2019).

If I use a 23" starter piece of pipe off the bottom of the drop, would I need to catch a hanger due to the total length of this assembly?

Or, since the flexible connector is 6'-0" and the starter pipe is 23" (Section 17.4.3.5.1) could I get away without an additional hanger?

Not that I'm planning to do this but just curious what people think?

Thanks in advance.

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16 Comments
Alex
12/12/2022 05:53:40 am

I can’t imagine any AHJ seeing that drop without a hanger and approving it. I’m not at my desk so can’t do the code research, but I feel you need a hanger!

Reply
Glenn Berger
12/12/2022 08:09:30 am

The more pipe segments that I see, it would cause me to want a pipe hanger or two installed.

Reply
Bill
12/12/2022 08:16:31 am

Section 17.4.3.5.1 states the "cumulative horizontal length of an unsupported armover to a sprinkler." That would include all piping, not just your 23" starter piece, and an inspector could include the flexible hose. I think a hanger is clearly required

Reply
Daniel LeFave
12/12/2022 08:17:00 am

I'm curious as to why you don't just put the 1'11 piece up above before the drop? I feel like this would be easier to get an AHJ to approve without a hanger and would eliminate almost 100 elbows.

Reply
Chris
12/12/2022 08:21:23 am

Why would you do it in two stages? The nice thing about flex drops is that you can hook them up and tie them out of the way, without having to plug that coupling. Just curious why you’d do this in two separate stages.

Another question is, are you able to turn the entire line? When we’ve converted uprights to pendents if you spin the line you can save all of those nipples and 90s. Just a thought

As for your original question, I wouldn’t use a hanger, we use starter pieces like that all the time without a hanger.

Reply
James Phifer
12/12/2022 08:24:58 am

Per the appendix, The maximum unsupported length of 6 ft of flex hose was based on the weight of the water filled pipe and what the ceiling grid could safely support. With the addition of the 23" of hard pipe, you've added more weight. I think a hanger should be required.

Reply
Ed
12/12/2022 08:26:23 am

Per 17.4.3.5.1 The cumulative horizontal length of an unsupported
armover to a sprinkler, sprinkler drop, or sprig shall not
exceed 24 in. (600 mm) for steel pipe or 12 in. (300 mm) for
copper tube.

Also, this direction is given in regard to flex drops:

17.4.1.3.3* Flexible Sprinkler Hose Fittings.

17.4.1.3.3.1 Listed flexible sprinkler hose fittings and their
anchoring components intended for use in installations
connecting the sprinkler system piping to sprinklers shall be
installed in accordance with the requirements of the listing,
including any installation instructions.

17.4.1.3.3.2 When installed and supported by suspended ceilings,
the ceiling shall meet ASTM C635/C635M, Standard Specification
for the Manufacture, Performance, and Testing of Metal
Suspension Systems for Acoustical Tile and Lay-In Panel Ceilings, and
shall be installed in accordance with ASTM C636/C636M,
Standard Practice for Installation of Metal Ceiling Suspension Systems
for Acoustical Tile and Lay-In Panels.

17.4.1.3.3.3* Where flexible sprinkler hose fittings exceed 6 ft
(1.8 m) in length and are supported by a suspended ceiling in
accordance with 17.4.1.3.3.2, a hanger(s) attached to the structure
shall be required to ensure that the maximum unsupported
length does not exceed 6 ft (1.8 m).

17.4.1.3.3.4* Where flexible sprinkler hose fittings are used to
connect sprinklers to branch lines in suspended ceilings, a
label limiting relocation of the sprinkler shall be provided on
the anchoring component.17.4.1.3.3* Flexible Sprinkler Hose Fittings.

17.4.1.3.3.1 Listed flexible sprinkler hose fittings and their
anchoring components intended for use in installations
connecting the sprinkler system piping to sprinklers shall be
installed in accordance with the requirements of the listing,
including any installation instructions.

17.4.1.3.3.2 When installed and supported by suspended ceilings,
the ceiling shall meet ASTM C635/C635M, Standard Specification
for the Manufacture, Performance, and Testing of Metal
Suspension Systems for Acoustical Tile and Lay-In Panel Ceilings, and
shall be installed in accordance with ASTM C636/C636M,
Standard Practice for Installation of Metal Ceiling Suspension Systems
for Acoustical Tile and Lay-In Panels.

17.4.1.3.3.3* Where flexible sprinkler hose fittings exceed 6 ft
(1.8 m) in length and are supported by a suspended ceiling in
accordance with 17.4.1.3.3.2, a hanger(s) attached to the structure
shall be required to ensure that the maximum unsupported
length does not exceed 6 ft (1.8 m).

17.4.1.3.3.4* Where flexible sprinkler hose fittings are used to
connect sprinklers to branch lines in suspended ceilings, a
label limiting relocation of the sprinkler shall be provided on
the anchoring component.

Reply
Jesse
12/12/2022 08:36:20 am

If you use the 23" piece you'll need a hanger IMO

Reply
Anthony
12/12/2022 08:42:18 am

I've done what you're showing but with 1'-0 starter pieces and 60'' whips.

I would suggest if its possible remove the 90 on the end and just extend the 5'-0 to say 7'-0 with a 90 on the end an you're out of the woods on either case.

Reply
Cliff Schulze
12/12/2022 12:47:40 pm

That was my thought as well. adding the horizontal run at the bottom of the 5'-0" drop seems unnecessary when you are using a flex connection.

Reply
Danial Bartle
12/12/2022 08:47:18 am

We did a remodel and changed uprights similarly because ACT was added along with a couple of clouds. As they added the drops, the weight caused the branch to turn in the direction of the added weight because of the type of grooved couplings in the branch line. For that reason, supports were added to the arm overs.

The arm over is not more than 24" and the flex does not exceed 6' according to your description but as an AHJ I would likely require the hanger because of the extra weight.

Reply
Chris
12/12/2022 01:06:04 pm

If you do want a hanger on the bottom arm over, swing the gooseneck away from the head's new location and then support the arm over from the branchline ring to ring. I'd probably use a longer top arm over than a close nipple.

Reply
Rob Castro
12/12/2022 02:59:07 pm

Why don't you just eliminate the armover all together since you are using a 5ft drop for a 6ft flex hose? Your drop is only a foot or so above your ceiling so the 6ft hose is more than enough to reach where your placing it... Just a thought...

Reply
Mark B
12/14/2022 10:13:05 am

Thinking a little larger than just the individual drops. If all drops were off the same side of the branchline like this, you will want a hanger regardless if code requires to help keep the torque created from the additional weight off the fittings of the branchline. I have had grooved branchlines rotate overtime due to this setup, while maintaining code requirements.

Reply
Janak Patel
12/14/2022 03:34:49 pm

17.4.1.3.3.3* Where flexible sprinkler hose fittings exceed 6 ft
(1.8 m) in length and are supported by a suspended ceiling in
accordance with 17.4.1.3.3.2, a hanger(s) attached to the structure
shall be required to ensure that the maximum unsupported
length does not exceed 6 ft (1.8 m).

Reply
chris
12/15/2022 09:30:11 pm

at the bottom of the drop try incorporating 45 deg fittings instead of 90s when you go land the head its a much smoother transition for your flex line and much easier to work with your fitters in the field will thank you

Reply



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  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
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