MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • About
    • Catalog
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT
Picture

Allow Omission for 55.4 sqft Bathrooms?

1/10/2022

26 Comments

 
I have a four-story hotel project to design that has bathrooms in the guest suites. These bathrooms measure out to 55.4 sqft per the architectural drawings of the bathrooms. 

I am getting pushback from individuals as I don't feel this complies with NFPA 13-2016 Section 8.15.8.1.1's exception, and therefore it would require sprinklers.

I interpret the 55 sqft threshold as 55.00 sqft, or am I interpreting this incorrectly and should allow sprinklers to be omitted as long as the square footage does not break into the 56-sqft threshold?

The exception also states 5.1 square meters, which converts to 54.89 sqft, which to me, reinforces my 55.00 sqft threshold.

What are your thoughts and feedback?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
26 Comments
Anthony
1/10/2022 07:38:00 am

Code is code, it is the law.

Have them make the room 1/2 a sqft smaller and you can call it a day. Perhaps a 0-6'' x 1'-0 built in shelf? Fur out the wall the shower is on 3'' further?

If you are and AHJ and are allowing a variance I think it is a very reasonable one. However, sounds like someone trying to cut corners, probably a good time to take the magnifying glass out and check out the rest of the project to see where things may have been "missed."

Reply
Jim
1/10/2022 11:02:18 am

It's not the law.

Reply
sean
1/10/2022 01:30:39 pm

his intent is correct.

When the building code is adopted it is adopted into the local laws, and these new laws reference standards.

So to meet the law you need to meet the code and the standard

Alex
1/10/2022 08:06:26 am

I agree with Anthony. This is one of many cases that arise where people look to stretch the code "just this one time". Sadly, if you give way here, next time they will look for the heads to be just 8' off the wall.

I would hold true and push back on the architect to decrease the SQFT somehow.

Alex

Reply
Jesse
1/10/2022 08:09:39 am

2016 NFPA 13R says sprinklers SHALL not be required in bathrooms where the bathroom area does not exceed 55-sq. ft.

So the inverse would also be true: Sprinklers SHALL be required in bathrooms where the bathroom area exceeds 55-sq. ft.

In your case, the bathroom does in fact exceed 55 sq. ft. So you'll need to protect this bathroom unless they make it smaller.

Reply
Eric D.
1/10/2022 08:10:21 am

So as an AHJ and plan reviewer, 55 is 55. If it breaks the 55 SF mark (55.001), then sprinklers are required. Look at the past few days where sprinklers were not installed in buildings in Philly and NYC...high loss of life. If the architect wants to redesign the bathroom and reduce the SF to under 55 (as printed in black and white in the code/standard), then that is up to them. But if they leave it over 55 SF, then sprinklers must be dropped in to comply with the requirements.

Reply
Wes
1/10/2022 08:15:49 am

Just my opinion, but I think this is somewhat sloppy work by the architect.

I once had a code consultant say never to build a highest-occupied floor above 72-feet if you don't want to be a highrise.

Why 72-feet, and not the 75-feet threshold that code states? It's too easy for grade to change, or for details to get missed, or for the 'rounding' effect, or a sequence of small decisions to get awfully close to the 75-foot benchmark where the entire project has to be scrutinized.

If you're looking to meet the intent of code, then don't leave room for controversy or extra scrutiny. Make it clearly compliant. Don't make a 54-sqft bathroom, make it 52-sqft so there isn't any room for interpretation. Otherwise - comply with the more stringent requirement.

It's less of a factor of whether the 0.4 sqft fundamentally makes a difference. Does it? Probably not. But code has to draw a line somewhere. Don't get sloppy with design and this wouldn't have been an issue.

Reply
Wes
1/10/2022 08:17:00 am

Also, it's Monday morning and I really should finish my coffee before getting asked about cutting corners...

Reply
Brian Willis Spurrell
1/10/2022 08:24:48 am

Codes are written and adopted as minimum requirements key word being minimum. In Canada the National Building Code does not allow the omission of any room on the top floor.

Reply
Todd Wyatt
1/10/2022 08:27:28 am

A hotel is classified by the IBC as a Group R-1 Residential occupancy classification. Per 903.2.8 Group R, "an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area." 903.3.1.1.2 Bathrooms lists an exception to sprinklers in Group R bathrooms "that do not exceed 55 square feet in area ... provided the walls and ceilings ... are of noncombustible or limited-combustible materials with a 15-minute thermal barrier rating."

NFPA 13R can be used in a Group R occupancy IF it meets the (3) condition per 903.3.1.2 (4 stories or fewer above grade plane, highest story = 30 feet or less above lowest level of fire department vehicle access, lowest story = 30 feet or less below lowest level of fire department vehicle access). The number of stories is based on the grade plane.

The IBC is the Code that determines the scoping requirements (including exceptions) for automatic sprinkler systems. NFPA 13 is the referenced standard identifying how sprinklers are to be installed, maintained, and inspected but NFPA 13 is not a scoping standard for sprinklers.

Reply
sean
1/11/2022 04:26:23 pm

NFPA 13R additionally can only be used if the area increase for sprinklers has not been used.

Reply
Glenn Berger
1/10/2022 08:36:09 am

Double check the area of the bathrooms with respect to face of finished walls. If still greater than 55 feet, then sprinklers are required.

Reply
Matthew Willis
1/10/2022 08:48:11 am

Also,

Do NOT fall into the scaling trap. Use the Floor Plans to get actual dimensions of the room. Let the math guide you.
If the math leads you to over 55, then sprinklers are required.
As others have stated, our codes and standards represent the MINIMUM requirements to apply.

How would defending this sound in a court of law when the wording is very clear....

R/
Matt

Reply
Joe F.
1/10/2022 10:45:15 am

I agree with Wes above, don't cut it so close. Even if the bathrooms are designed as 55 sq. ft. when the bathrooms are physically framed it is inevitable that some of the bathrooms grow in size in inch or two due to framing errors, and you will end up with an unsprinklered bathroom that is >55 Sq. Ft. There needs to be room for error. Arch should design the bathrooms to 54 Sq. Ft. or less if they want to eleminate sprinklers.

Reply
DS
1/10/2022 12:30:29 pm

For all of those stating to follow the letter of the code (which I do as well), the requirement is for bathrooms inside dwelling units exceeding or greater than 55 sf.

Reply
sean
1/10/2022 01:34:31 pm

I don't know your role or the role of the other individuals but this is a good time to document it.

Lets day you are the PM or Foreman and the designer is saying it will be fine, when the inspector gets out on site and says hey these are more than 55sq.ft. what will happen then.

I would also say while the AHJ could agree to do anything the contractor would still be liable for the design, saying the fire marshal let me is not a great defense

Reply
Jack G
1/10/2022 03:56:39 pm

Be careful. There is always a note on all architectural set if drawings , that the dimensions are within 1,5 inches and can vary.
I ran into that in a hotel, when I field checked the floors, prior to installation to verify the partition locations, the bath rooms were an inch or so larger each direction which put them about .36 over the 55 sq. Ft.
Owner was ticked adding 144 heads in bathrooms. CM was ticked. Carpenters were the culprit. But followed the plan.
Always field check. Always field check the spaces subject to “ not requiring sprinklers >”
After 57 years, not many surprises to me.

Reply
Jon N
1/10/2022 08:24:55 pm

I have read the previous posts and I must admit that, as an AHJ, I am torn on this. Yes; 55 ft. is 55 ft. but don't forget that the administrative chapters of virtually every code requires "reasonable" enforcement or states that the code is intended to provide a reasonable level of fire (or life) safety.

I have been blessed to have been on several code committees over the years and have seen first-hand where sometimes these code thresholds are "committee numbers". They are not based on any science (i.e. it is impossible for a 55 sq. ft. room to have a fire - NOT!). It was probably an arbitrary number that someone calculated was necessary based on a reasonably-sized space to accommodate typical bathroom needs (sink, tub, toilet, cabinets, etc.).

I teach beginner fire code officials to measure things with a tape measure or ruler, not a micrometer. Exactly how do you measure a space - do you measure it at the floor? Do you measure it at waist level? Do you measure it at the ceiling? Most people seem to measure it based on floor area. My guess is that the room size varies based on whether it is measured at the floor or at the ceiling (a perfectly straight vertical wood stud wall seems very rare nowadays). If the measurement is taken at the floor (floor area), a simple solution is to install "quarter-round" trim around the inside of all of the walls.

Whew; by installing quarter-round trim you just made things so much safer from fire (that was intended as a cynical remark and to add a bit of humor).

As an AHJ if this were brought to my attention, would I question it? YES. Would I have found it on my own during plan review or inspection? PROBABLY NOT. If I were aware of it, would I ask the architect or general contractor how they intend to address it? YES. Would I lay awake nights worrying about it like I do over the dozens of egress violations and egregious sources of ignition that we see every day? NO!

Reply
Jessica Lutz
1/11/2022 10:19:51 am

55 sqft is the limit...period.

Construction tolerances always need to be considered.

Never design to the exact threshold...always give yourself a safety factor, a cushion, or a way out when slight changes happen during actual installation.

Reply
Munny Khan
1/11/2022 01:20:23 pm

I would definitely err on the side of caution and add a head anyways.

It sounds like a philosophical/mathematical questions, what is greater than 55? 56. What is greater than 55.0? 55.1. Maybe that should be clarified?

I also like the reference to the metric equivalent. Begs the question: From which is the value derived?

Reply
Chris Hall
1/11/2022 02:46:33 pm

I pulled the SQFT from an enlarged bathroom plan with dimensions. I feel like they should be sprinkled as I interpret it as 55.00sqft, but at this point I feel like it is really splitting hairs. I told our other designer to proceed with heads in the bathroom unless the architect/owner can come back and tell us that the bathrooms will all be under 55sqft. I know for a fact there are some hotels in this area that have bathrooms over 55sqft that aren't sprinkled. But I had nothing to do with them, and skirting code isn't for me. In a way to add to the "splitting hairs" when we pull the sqft with Autosprink on the CAD drawings it shows it as 55sqft.

Reply
Jay
1/11/2022 04:28:37 pm

NFPA 13 speaks to not using a level of precision greater than intended.

NFPA 72 elaborates on this and says
1.6.5 *
The values presented for measurements in this Code are expressed with a degree of precision appropriate for practical application and enforcement. It is not intended that the application or enforcement of these values be more precise than the precision expressed.

A.1.6.5 
Where dimensions are expressed in inches, it is intended that the precision of the measurement be 1 in., thus plus or minus 1∕ 2 in. The conversion and presentation of dimensions in millimeters would then have a precision of 25 mm, thus plus or minus 13 mm.



Reply
Anonymoose
1/11/2022 06:41:15 pm

55 SF = 2 significant digits
5.1 SM = 2 significant digits

55.4 SF = 3 significant digits

Your reference to 5.1 threshold actually implies that going beyond 2 significant digits is not the intent of the standard.

That being said, getting the architect to put their name on the 55 SF number is always good for your future liability.

Reply
Eric Young
1/12/2022 11:17:38 am

Let's say a fitter installs sprinklers 10 feet apart. Going back, we measure and find one head is actually 10.042 feet from the next. The pipe was not screwed in as far as the others. Is it over-spaced? Well, yes! Time to re-cut that pipe? No.
I believe we round off to the nearest value using the significant digits of the value given; in this case the nearest square foot. 55.4 rounds down to 55, not up to 56. If NFPA gave 7920 square inches as the limit, your 55.4 square feet becomes 7977.6 square inches, which rounds to 7978 square inches- that would be over the limit by 58 square inches, so it is fortunate NFPA set the limit using square feet.
Unfortunately, NFPA is a bit grey on the topic except where they talk about SI conversions- maybe there is some insight to be gained by studying that.

Reply
Chris Hall
1/12/2022 09:04:00 pm

And those are good points, and part of why I sent the question in. The significant number comment intrigued me because that’s a good point, and made me think about how the .4sqft overage technically would round down if you are going off of the figure as a whole number.

Reply
sean
1/12/2022 09:50:44 pm

while eric's thought experiment is nice, I don't think it holds up.

many measurements in nfpa 13 are expressed as a minimum of X, or a maximum of X, not less than X, etc.

if you are permitted a maximum of three cookies and you take 3.4 cookies you have exceeded your max.




Leave a Reply.

    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    ALL-ACCESS

    Picture
    GET ALL OUR TOOLS

    SUBSCRIBE

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    COMMUNITY

    Top ​Jan 2023 Contributors
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    YOUR POST

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    PE EXAM

    Get 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
    SIGN ME UP!

    FILTERS

    All
    A117.1
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    ASTM E1354
    Daily Discussion
    Design Documents
    EN 12845
    Explosion Protection & Prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable & Combustible LIquids
    FM Global
    Human Behavior
    IBC
    ICC-500
    IFC
    IMC
    IPC
    IRC
    ISO
    Means Of Egress
    NBC
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 1142
    NFPA 1221
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 16
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 220
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 241
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 33
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 409
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 495
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 55
    NFPA 654
    NFPA 68
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 701
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 75
    NFPA 82
    NFPA 855
    NFPA 90A
    NFPA 92
    NFPA 96
    NICET
    OBC
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management
    Special Hazard Systems
    UFC 3 600 01
    UFC 3-600-01
    UFC 4-021-01
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    ARCHIVES

    February 2023
    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    September 2022
    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016


    PE PREP SERIES

    Fire Protection PE Exam Prep
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    RSS Feed

Picture
​Home
Our Cause
The Blog
The Forum
PE Exam Prep
The Toolkit

MeyerFire University
​Pricing
Login
​Support
Contact Us
Picture

MeyerFire.com is a startup community built to help fire protection professionals shine.
Our goal is to improve fire protection practices worldwide. We promote the industry by creating helpful tools and resources, and by bringing together industry professionals to share their expertise.

​MeyerFire, LLC is an International Code Council Preferred Education Provider.

All text, images, and media ​Copyright © 2022 MeyerFire, LLC

We respect your privacy and personal data. See our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. 
The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

Discussions are solely for the purpose of peer review and the exchange of ideas. All comments are reviewed. Comments which do not contribute, are not relevant, are spam, or are disrespectful in nature may be removed. Information presented and opinions expressed should not be relied upon as a replacement for consulting services. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a small commission for orders placed elsewhere.

  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • About
    • Catalog
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT