Advice for a Designer Without Field Experience?

1/29/2024

Designers and engineers get knocked (rightfully so) all the time for not living "in the real world".

I'm one of those designers. I've never installed any of these systems myself, but I want to know what advice those in the field would wish their designers and engineers knew.

What is one error or issue that you've seen that was due to a designer having a lack of field experience?

Pipe lengths? Obstructions? Elevators? Heights? Fab methods?

What have you seen missed that could have been right the first time if they had field experience?

Looking for ways to keep the field from hating me while acknowledging that I don't come with that level of experience. Thanks in advance.

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20 Comments

1/29/2024 07:23:17 am

Ask your company if they are willing to let you spend a couple days in the field installing your own designs. There is really no substitution to real field experience.

Show commitment and accountability by calling the installers and checking in. No news is not always good news.

Retrofit jobs will force you to get out there and measure. If you can have an installer accompany you even for 30 minutes to get their take on best routing will be very valuable.

I would say that most errors in design are due to lack of field experience and not being aware of field conditions at the time of fabrication.

chad

1/29/2024 09:26:35 am

The lack being literally in the field may be the problem, not that you have a lack of experience installing. Get out there and have the installers show you problems, ask questions, get a feeling for the real world, not just paper space.

Go on site visits with estimator and foreman. And explain why you are there. Consider not wearing a shirt and tie and do not be afraid to get dust on you. I am not suggesting you need to thread pipe or get on a ladder, but get close to that. It will ingratiate you with the field ops team.

Anon

1/29/2024 09:26:54 am

Make sure there's actually enough space for the fitter to get a pipe wrench in or space for them to get the coupling in.

Sandy

1/29/2024 09:27:47 am

I second what DE says, ask to get out in the field with the installers, with the idea that it will end up saving money because there will be less change orders after the design is approved. Then ask the installers what you can do to make their life easier.

When I was in maintenance, many of the guys complained that the designers didn't provide enough room to install something. Or they would not provide room for a lift to lift a large pump/piece of equipment. There needs to be ways to move equipment vs on the backs of the crew.

Another really easy way to learn is to go to the meetings if they have any. Bring food. And ask the installers questions, and listen. Communication is key. Ask the installers what you can do to improve their lives, and then do it if it's possible.

Todd W.

1/29/2024 09:28:36 am

Communication with the field is very important. If you are ever not sure how to design something, such as hangers, ask someone from the field. They are the experts.

They will appreciate the communication. Never treat the field like they are just "Fitters". Utilize their knowledge, it will help you become a better designer.

As mentioned before, if you have the ability to work in the field on one of your projects, even if you can only observe, it will help you in the future.

Kellery Ward

1/29/2024 09:32:32 am

I started listing over 20 years ago. I've learned tons of valuable information talking with the field, shop, superintendents. Make yourself the one who is open to talk to them. If you have a fab shop talk to those fabbing the pipe. As DE said go out when they are installing your design. I've put things together in the shop to just actually get the feel and visual. But I'm going to say I still confer with field personnel. It's a team.

Jack G

1/29/2024 09:39:38 am

One thing is in a commercial bathroom. The toilet partitions are low, however there are rods or braces that run up thru the ceiling.
They don’t show up on the arch planview.
The young designer hits them 9 out of 10 times.
Also, always do a field check ( again) after your system is installed. Mark up your print and review what’s changed and determine why.
Always good to do.

Pete

1/29/2024 10:33:25 am

Designers need to understand joist bridging height, what it is, what bridging looks like, where to find it on the S or A sheets, and the vertical stacking order of all the members, girders, beams, joists, columns to carry the roof load down to the slab. They should also be shown how warehouse roofs are designed to pitch and roll toward the roof drains. This is going to be more obvious in a 3D model, after you insert the structure, but in the old 2-D design days, this was extremely difficult to understand. I too favor sending designers on the installation. You may run into problems if it is a union shop. There are a number of things you run into in the field that would take you months if not years to otherwise understand... why we need unions, how much deflection you can get out of a flex-groove coupling (also published)... ad infinitum.

Dan Wilder

1/29/2024 10:59:58 am

Humility goes a long way but understand that every Foreman likes things a certain way (kinda like designers will all do things their way) so input from one may absolutely drive another crazy.... it's nibbles not bites.

Make yourself available for the field input but make sure it's constructive, you're not asking to be a dumping board or a whipping post, the intent is to make it better and stick to it. Take a current job in the install phase, go to the jobsite and see the install, ask what's working AND what's not. Take jobs that are getting to a milestone (submittal & listing) and get your Superintendent involved as to what to and not to do.

Do this on their timeframes understanding that they start earlier than you do in most cases, showing up at 12 right before cleanup is not the time they likely want to discuss things, nor on their breaks or lunch (unless you brought it, then maybe).

My thoughts - approach it like the old "How to make a sandwich" activity....approach it like you know nothing about the 2D print you're about to send out. How do they know where that ell is, what that offset elevation is, when pipes are close up-what does that look like, when pipes cross-what elevations are they at.

Dimensions....
Riser & main - Start at the riser with the 2 dims, follow that until it turns..put another two dimensions, repeat up until you hit the cap where a final two dims will be placed.

Branch lines - Always run dims to column lines along the exterior, do the interior as lines offset around items. If you are running them to walls, make sure they are there in the field at the same time the guys are installing.

Elevations - Start and end of everything. If it slopes, make a note and put starting and ending elevations.

Details - small ISO's go a long way as callouts-2D plans do not convey routing at all. Large ISO's can also be helpful.

Submittal prints do not equal field prints. There may be, and likely are, more plans to be sent out to convey intent. A submittal set being sent out is helpful, but having project sheets with just the piping and call outs with enlarged areas, additional ISO's, maybe an RCP only print for ACT/gyp board dimension plans with no piping all are helpful.

You're not going to fix everything all at once....make an effort to tackle the items that cause the most heart ache for the field, then ask again and fine tune things. The field will tell you when it's wrong, they will also know to not beat you up when you're trying and actively asking for input. Then it turns into conversations like "Well, it would have been nice to have...." vs " I'm missing (insert field issue)..."

Dave

1/29/2024 11:09:26 am

It’s refreshing to hear you ask this question, it says a lot about you. EXCELLENT comments so far. There are SO many things to consider that are difficult to learn from one’s desk or computer. I had to pick ONE “error?” “How about… the old, “the pipes are too long to fit up in the trusses.”
Many suggestions are at the mercy of what your employer will allow or what they feel is valuable. And if they allow you to be PM, or limited to drafting and never leave the office. Some companies create a communication barrier between design and field (and purchasing), I feel this is a huge mistake. A few weeks in the field (if the company and union will allow) is invaluable to a new designer. Many designers these days never set foot on a jobsite. Get out there, wear your PPE (dirty-up your hardhat), check in at the GC jobshack, and as Sandy says, bring doughnuts, walk the job, and sit in on a progress meeting. Learn some fitter slang. I like to encourage the designer to meet with the fitter or field superintended prior to their first day on site. OR on the first day on-site. I often wrote some bullet-points or marked-up the installation print to communicate some things I want to bring to their attention. I once even used a private YouTube channel that a fitter could view to prior to complicated T.I.’s A debriefing with the fitter after a project, either in-person, or on a prepared paper form so the designer will learn for the future. Overall, try to THINK like your fitter from the beginning stages of design. I believe the evolution of CAD / REVIT makes the challenge even greater of preparing a drawing that the fitter can actually install from. You may have spent weeks or months on a drawing, you know the building inside and out, you have nightmares about it. Imagine a fitter opening up your drawing, on a windy, raining, poorly-lit first day on a jobsite, the pipe is being unloaded, does the fitter even know from your drawing where to begin? Where the riser is? Elevations and useable centerlines? IS it coordinated with other trades? Can they really install those hangers and braces where you showed them? I make a fitter print separate from the submittal drawing, the fitters don’t need they drawing clutters with hydraulic nodes.
Great question.

Glenn Berger

1/29/2024 11:19:01 am

It is never too late to get to the field. Some installers are not be most friendliest to discuss installation vs design issues with you.

One key is to know the difference between reality tolerances and computer-based design.

The other key is knowing how fire protection system needs to be coordinated with other disciplines.

Josh

1/29/2024 11:21:41 am

Get to know the contractors you work with. The guys in the field know whether something works or not from experience. They want you to make their job easier too so they are going to share this info with you. Never take for granted what they do and don't have an ego about being an engineer. I've gotten to know some incredibly knowledgeable guys that I will call occasionally to bounce ideas off of and vice versa.

Franck

1/29/2024 11:53:59 am

One of the most common mistake, sometimes difficult to evaluate from a desk, is related to obstructions.
I see so many installations with obvious obstructions that were certainly made "according to the drawings", but not matching reality...
Don't underestimate the power of obstructions from lighting, cable trays or adjacent numerous piping laying underneath the sprinkler systems.
Most of the time, sprinkler layout are done without all these "additional" problems that will be implemented later on.

How many times you want to fix sprinklers at the ceiling level, or below a mezzanine and you find that... somebody decided to put the HVAC ducts or all the lights at the same exact location...

Another issue that was also mentioned above: think about the feasibility of installing the system. Sometimes there are very tiny places and it becomes a nightmare to be able to fix piping at the ceiling level or simply to pass the pipe due to its length...

Pete H

1/29/2024 01:23:37 pm

Unfortunately every field tech will vary about how much they want/need from the design sheets, and every company will vary about how much they actually want you to put down.

Make some parts deliveries for the company, talk to the field on the jobs you designed. See what you missed, talk with them about how to proceed on the job, etc.

DANIEL

1/29/2024 02:23:31 pm

I'm in my second year as a designer and I agree with all of you, going to the field is the best thing you can do to learn how things look like, how they are installed and overall knowledge on how many challenges installers have to solve in the construction site, you also get feedback by the installers and the best question for me to ask is "in what way can I design to make thing easier for you to install". I'll also lose the fear of asking questions, ask for advice to your superiors or your peers.

Dave

1/29/2024 02:58:55 pm

Yep, I don't know a fitter who doesn't appreciate being valued and asked for their opinion. I mean, don't let them push you around, but what can I have done to make the design better; how can I have done this area with fewer fittings, do you want dimensions from FF or below structure. Or hey that duct is not where I coordinated with them.

Kellery Ward

1/30/2024 04:09:24 pm

Your last comment I feel is VERY important for designers & field. I've stressed it with both for a longtime. Because if either or both just do/fix things without running it by PM you could be losing money on things that weren't in scope. And second bringing food, preferable right before break. Then you can shoot the shit and become a "real" person to the field.

Anthony

1/31/2024 08:18:08 am

Lots of glass half full comments here. It's always possible that some people are jerks and you'll just have to endure them. Know that life in the field is much harder than behind a desk and can engender an "us v them' culture if not corrected by PM's. Remember that a field guy can show you every one of your mistakes and you'll never see any of theirs after the ceiling is installed or if you're not a PM reading the punch list. A designer is an easy target and frankly much easier to replace than good field person so some PM's let their field personnel run rough shot over office folk.

Trust takes time, hang in there.

kimberly L olivas

2/1/2024 02:08:51 pm

So many great responses. I didn't see this specifically, but I didn't read very well.

I used to get yelled at by fitters for not putting enough hangers. I went by code, and try to get rid of as many as possible. But, you have to think about them trying to hang stuff. My advice is to add hangers, even if you can get rid of them by code, they need them to help hold and hang piping more efficiently.

Pete

2/2/2024 09:26:36 am

10'-6" is a good spacing.

Advice for a Designer Without Field Experience?

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