What's Your Biggest Frustration with Consultants?

12/5/2019

What are your biggest pet peeves with consultants (engineers or designers) in our industry? I'm interested.

Just a little about why I ask - I work as a consultant and also in our business development. In a backwards way, understanding the pain points only helps guide where I can improve and hopefully help business as well. Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

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8 Comments

joe s

12/5/2019 10:08:41 am

We are forgotten about to the last minute and no one wants to take the time and learn about our trade!

ioan rincu

12/20/2019 11:04:07 am

This is the most astute comment I've heard in a very long time.

Thank you for that!

Anon.

12/5/2019 10:22:39 am

Sorry, I'm not quite understanding the context. Can you clarify what you mean by "consultant (engineers or designers)"? Are you referring to an engineer or designer or FPE who represents, for example, the owner and/or architect, as opposed to a designer/engineer who works for an installing sprinkler contractor? Person's who may provide specifications for a specific project (and in rare cases design drawings) for the owner?

ORIGINAL SUBMITTER

12/5/2019 12:49:07 pm

Sorry - I'm talking about consultants as specifying engineer working for the architect/owner.

12/5/2019 10:23:49 am

It seems that to them, it doesn't matter how many years you have actually been installing systems and are able to look at their design and give feedback on why it won't work. Too many times the answer is because I went to college and got a degree in 'xx whatever'. It appears a lot have forgotten that every design ALWAYS works on paper. In real life, not so much.

RPO link

12/5/2019 12:34:57 pm

Gonna tread lightly on this one, knowing the company we keep here. I assume you are referring to specifying engineers who prepare drawings for the purposes of bidding.

Let's begin with water supply. Very rarely do we ever get a set of bid docs that has water supply info. Given the short turnaround times for bid packs, this leaves us to guess, or clarify our proposal based on a minimum water supply. I've personally been involved with several projects where inadequate water supply was not identified pre-bid. This leaves the owner on the hook for huge potential change orders.

You should not be getting paid to draw a dashed polyline around a multi-story 100,000 sq,ft building and say "provide protection per NFPA 13". At the very least, we should have hazard classifications, standpipe locations, etc.

I've read the joint statement from SFPE/NSPE/NICET regarding design responsibilities, and I agree for the most part, but poor design documents put us (NICET Techs) in a bad position. We're left to fill in the blanks, and often correct the person who ultimately will review our drawings. Too many firms are employing plumbing designers or mechanical engineers who also "happen" to do fire protection, even though they are not qualified.

Dave

12/5/2019 01:26:01 pm

Regarding specifying engineers, usually ME's, sometimes FPE's: Most, while specifying and producing drawings for fire sprinkler systems, break their state's law and ethical responsibility by practicing beyond their area of expertise. They leave out the important items like flow tests, determining hazards, pushing the Architect to produce RCP's, and do ridiculous things like hatch in an entire floor and tag a note to it that says, "Light hazard .10gpm/1500sq.ft." Then challenge us when we use a 900 sq.ft. QR design in their 9'-0 ceiling area, ask for a C/O to move the FDC that they failed to locate to a wall that's pleasing to the owner, or use a mechanical tee in new construction. In the meantime, they're oblivious to things like 8 sprink or 3000sq.ft. design areas with certain TJI construction and are too lazy (or confused) to pick the options in their master spec. so show all options. I chuckle at the long list of ASTM pipe standards that are in many specs or where the system is described: Sprinkler system shall be a [wet/dry/preaction/deluge] system. Ok..thanks for that key info, and I'll also make sure I provide those [Automatic/Central/Firematic] sprinklers specified!

Having worked all sides of the business, it's clear that 99% of the architects and owners who pay the 2-5% of construction value for this 'engineering' work don't understand they're getting conned. They also don't understand that it's not just the engineering fees getting wasted, but the higher cost of installation, CO's, lack of coordination, conflict resolution, etc. that comes with having a critical system designed just prior to (sometimes during) install.

I suspect that you (Joe) are one of a handful of engineers around the U.S. who actually produce decent bid drawings and specs - I've been around a long time and have only met a few. So I'm preaching to the choir...but you asked!

anon.

12/6/2019 12:54:26 pm

Got it - I thought that's what the original post may have been asking, I just wanted to clarify, because I am on that side, yet have also experienced those frustrations. The company I work for tries to be an exception to the norm you all are experiencing (like that "generic" riser detail we've all seen), and since I and my co-workers have also spent many years on the contracting side, and maintain close business relationships with the contracting side, I think we do a pretty good job. Even though a few things in our specs are beyond NFPA 13.

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