MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • About
    • Catalog
    • Content Library
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT
Picture

What's Your Biggest Frustration with Consultants?

12/5/2019

8 Comments

 
What are your biggest pet peeves with consultants (engineers or designers) in our industry? I'm interested.

Just a little about why I ask -  I work as a consultant and also in our business development. In a backwards way, understanding the pain points only helps guide where I can improve and hopefully help business as well. Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

​​Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
8 Comments
joe s
12/5/2019 10:08:41 am

We are forgotten about to the last minute and no one wants to take the time and learn about our trade!

Reply
ioan rincu
12/20/2019 11:04:07 am

This is the most astute comment I've heard in a very long time.

Thank you for that!

Reply
Anon.
12/5/2019 10:22:39 am

Sorry, I'm not quite understanding the context. Can you clarify what you mean by "consultant (engineers or designers)"? Are you referring to an engineer or designer or FPE who represents, for example, the owner and/or architect, as opposed to a designer/engineer who works for an installing sprinkler contractor? Person's who may provide specifications for a specific project (and in rare cases design drawings) for the owner?

Reply
ORIGINAL SUBMITTER
12/5/2019 12:49:07 pm

Sorry - I'm talking about consultants as specifying engineer working for the architect/owner.

Reply
RJ
12/5/2019 10:23:49 am

It seems that to them, it doesn't matter how many years you have actually been installing systems and are able to look at their design and give feedback on why it won't work. Too many times the answer is because I went to college and got a degree in 'xx whatever'. It appears a lot have forgotten that every design ALWAYS works on paper. In real life, not so much.

Reply
RPO link
12/5/2019 12:34:57 pm

Gonna tread lightly on this one, knowing the company we keep here. I assume you are referring to specifying engineers who prepare drawings for the purposes of bidding.

Let's begin with water supply. Very rarely do we ever get a set of bid docs that has water supply info. Given the short turnaround times for bid packs, this leaves us to guess, or clarify our proposal based on a minimum water supply. I've personally been involved with several projects where inadequate water supply was not identified pre-bid. This leaves the owner on the hook for huge potential change orders.

You should not be getting paid to draw a dashed polyline around a multi-story 100,000 sq,ft building and say "provide protection per NFPA 13". At the very least, we should have hazard classifications, standpipe locations, etc.

I've read the joint statement from SFPE/NSPE/NICET regarding design responsibilities, and I agree for the most part, but poor design documents put us (NICET Techs) in a bad position. We're left to fill in the blanks, and often correct the person who ultimately will review our drawings. Too many firms are employing plumbing designers or mechanical engineers who also "happen" to do fire protection, even though they are not qualified.

Reply
Dave
12/5/2019 01:26:01 pm

Regarding specifying engineers, usually ME's, sometimes FPE's: Most, while specifying and producing drawings for fire sprinkler systems, break their state's law and ethical responsibility by practicing beyond their area of expertise. They leave out the important items like flow tests, determining hazards, pushing the Architect to produce RCP's, and do ridiculous things like hatch in an entire floor and tag a note to it that says, "Light hazard .10gpm/1500sq.ft." Then challenge us when we use a 900 sq.ft. QR design in their 9'-0 ceiling area, ask for a C/O to move the FDC that they failed to locate to a wall that's pleasing to the owner, or use a mechanical tee in new construction. In the meantime, they're oblivious to things like 8 sprink or 3000sq.ft. design areas with certain TJI construction and are too lazy (or confused) to pick the options in their master spec. so show all options. I chuckle at the long list of ASTM pipe standards that are in many specs or where the system is described: Sprinkler system shall be a [wet/dry/preaction/deluge] system. Ok..thanks for that key info, and I'll also make sure I provide those [Automatic/Central/Firematic] sprinklers specified!

Having worked all sides of the business, it's clear that 99% of the architects and owners who pay the 2-5% of construction value for this 'engineering' work don't understand they're getting conned. They also don't understand that it's not just the engineering fees getting wasted, but the higher cost of installation, CO's, lack of coordination, conflict resolution, etc. that comes with having a critical system designed just prior to (sometimes during) install.

I suspect that you (Joe) are one of a handful of engineers around the U.S. who actually produce decent bid drawings and specs - I've been around a long time and have only met a few. So I'm preaching to the choir...but you asked!








Reply
anon.
12/6/2019 12:54:26 pm

Got it - I thought that's what the original post may have been asking, I just wanted to clarify, because I am on that side, yet have also experienced those frustrations. The company I work for tries to be an exception to the norm you all are experiencing (like that "generic" riser detail we've all seen), and since I and my co-workers have also spent many years on the contracting side, and maintain close business relationships with the contracting side, I think we do a pretty good job. Even though a few things in our specs are beyond NFPA 13.

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    ALL-ACCESS

    Picture
    GET ALL OUR TOOLS

    SUBSCRIBE

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    COMMUNITY

    Top ​July '22 Contributors
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    YOUR POST

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    PE EXAM

    Get 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
    SIGN ME UP!

    FILTERS

    All
    A117.1
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    Daily Discussion
    Design Documents
    EN 12845
    Explosion Protection & Prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable & Combustible LIquids
    FM Global
    Human Behavior
    IBC
    ICC-500
    IFC
    IMC
    IPC
    IRC
    ISO
    Means Of Egress
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 1142
    NFPA 1221
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 220
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 241
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 33
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 409
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 55
    NFPA 654
    NFPA 68
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 75
    NFPA 82
    NFPA 90A
    NFPA 92
    NICET
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management
    Special Hazard Systems
    UFC 3 600 01
    UFC 3-600-01
    UFC 4-021-01
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    ARCHIVES

    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016


    PE PREP SERIES

    Fire Protection PE Exam Prep
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    RSS Feed

Picture
​Home
Our Cause
The Blog
The Forum
PE Exam Prep
The Toolkit

MeyerFire University
​Pricing
Login
​Support
Contact Us
Picture

MeyerFire.com is a startup community built to help fire protection professionals shine.
Our goal is to improve fire protection practices worldwide. We promote the industry by creating helpful tools and resources, and by bringing together industry professionals to share their expertise.

​MeyerFire, LLC is an International Code Council Preferred Education Provider.

All text, images, and media ​Copyright © 2022 MeyerFire, LLC

We respect your privacy and personal data. See our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. 
The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

Discussions are solely for the purpose of peer review and the exchange of ideas. All comments are reviewed. Comments which do not contribute, are not relevant, are spam, or are disrespectful in nature may be removed. Information presented and opinions expressed should not be relied upon as a replacement for consulting services. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a small commission for orders placed elsewhere.

  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • About
    • Catalog
    • Content Library
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT