MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • TOOLKIT
    • ALL TOOLS
    • BUY THE TOOLKIT
  • UNIVERSITY
    • ALL COURSES
    • JOIN THE UNIVERSITY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE PREP SERIES
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
    • TOOLKIT-ONLY LOGIN
    • UNIVERSITY LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • OUR CAUSE
    • ABOUT MEYERFIRE
    • JOB OPENINGS
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT
Picture

Very Large Floor/Ceiling Space Still Concealed?

9/26/2022

14 Comments

 
Hi all, I need help on this one:

There is a floor space in between the roof and the top story of a building. It's non-combustible construction.

The floor space in-between the roof and top story is 13-ft (4 m) high with limited access, about 64,000 sqft (6,000 m²) in floor area, no occupancy or storage intended, only pipes and ducts will be in this space and the equipment will be at roof level.

The architects refer to this as a concealed space.

1. Can this be considered a concealed space?

2. Are there any limitations for concealed space in terms of size?

3. Does this space requires sprinklers?

Any suggestions will be highly appreciated. 

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
14 Comments
Glenn Berger
9/26/2022 08:14:58 am

Your question said "limited-access," "floor space" and "no occupancy or storage intended." These are buzz words trying to skirt code requirements. My gut reaction is that during the life of this facility, this space will be used and therefore sprinklers should be installed at this time.

Reply
Jesse
9/26/2022 08:19:11 am

I missed the "limited access" part. Access changes this for me and I agree with Glenn's assessment. I think it should be protected.

Reply
Alex
9/26/2022 09:13:17 am

Glenn hit the big points here. I would be nervous based solely on the language used in the question here. I would confirm it is truly meant to be a congealed space before omitting sprinklers.

Simon
9/28/2022 11:12:28 am

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for your comment, let me explain why I used these words:

1. Limited access: There will be 2'x2' access hatches not from same floor level or from level below. These access hatches are going to be on the roof above. This makes storage to be very difficult, almost impossible.

2. Floor space: The floor is not a suspended ceiling, it is a non-combustible floor. This space is designed to have "conical-shape" skylights from the roof above down to the ceiling of the floor below; and also it will be used to run all ducts, pipes and conduits. All mechanical equipment will be at roof level.

Does it require sprinklers?

Can be Fire Alarm devices used in lieu of sprinklers?

Thanks for your help.

Reply
Greg
9/26/2022 08:16:00 am

I have seen this type of space in differing configurations; solid floor with drains, grated suspended floor over ceiling tile, and truss supported floor decking.

This space is a bit of a platypus. Are there any mechanicals in the space that are in addition to the pipes mentioned? Is this space actually a mechanical room and based on your floor configuration, sprinklers may be appropriate?

In any of these spaces, while storage is 'not allowed' the temptation to store items (such as pipe insulation in boxes left over from the construction) is very very real. Managing this space to zero storage for the life of the facility is very unlikely.

If it is decided that sprinklers are not possible and not required, consider adding a standpipe hose connection in the hallway wall near the door that leads to this space.

I'm curious to review the chat to understand what experiences others have had with these spaces; both new and retrofit / remodels.

Reply
Greg
9/26/2022 08:29:56 am

I did forget to mention, on the chance it is a grated suspended floor over ceiling tiles and the space below the tiles is an assembly occupancy or any populated occupancy .... and assuming you do install sprinklers, what is the result of a fire even where one sprinkler actuates , and subsequent alarm (up to 60 seconds) , in regards to the safety of people below from saturated ceiling tiles.

If this is the situation, over suspended tiles, I would think heat detectors in lieu of. But possibly others have some thoughts about this possibility...

Reply
Jesse
9/26/2022 08:16:54 am

Well, it is a concealed space by definition. However, I don't see this a combustible concealed space unless building equipment in that space is combustible. Its not different from a non-combustible buildout in a large shell building where we may protect the office occupancy below but not the area above.

Note that you may have some triggers to protect it such as if other areas below are open to deck or they intend to have any miscellaneous storage there. Additionally, I've seen AHJs require protection in the event a tenant stores something there.

Reply
Jesse
9/26/2022 08:17:58 am

I think I missed the "limited access" part. How limited is the "limited" access??

Reply
Simon
9/28/2022 10:49:54 am

There are a couple of 2x2 hatches accessible from the roof above, my guess is that they have these for service. I don't think there is any possibility they use this space for storage. From the roof to the floor space is 13 ft high. No other access points from the floor below.

Wiley Wilson link
9/26/2022 08:25:48 am

NFPA 13 - 2013 Chapter 8/8.15 Special Situations
8.15.1.2.2-Concealed spaces of noncombustible and limited combustible construction with limited access and not permitting occupancy or storage shall not require sprinkler protection.

Limited access is key here. If a door is used it needs to be of the type that requires a tool to enter and the door does not extend to the floor that would require you to step over.

Reply
Dan Wilder
9/26/2022 08:26:21 am

If it meets the requirements of 13-19' 9.2.1 for concealed spaces, sprinkler omission is allowable. No to any footage maximums (in square feet or cubic feet) that I am aware of.

However, a couple keywords stand out to me in the question...

First - "Floor" space in between the roof and top story... - Is this a true floor or mezzanine type area, i.e. walkable?

Second - "Limited Access" - Concealed spaces have the terms "No Access"...what is this limited access entail?

Are there provisions from any other trade in the space? Future build out, HVAC, exit lighting, FA devices?

Based on the face value terms in your question, I would lean toward a sprinkler requirement.

Reply
Steven
9/26/2022 09:01:06 am

As others said, I would find it hard to believe that such a large space would not be used for storage or some other occupancy at some point down the road. Of course, adding sprinklers to this area will be a very costly change to the customer, and it's difficult to justify such a change based on only our intuition. I don't know if there are any code references that would explicitly indicate that this area is too large to be considered a concealed space. As such, I think it would be good to discuss with the AHJ to get something "official" which can be used to justify why sprinklers should be added (which is what I think will be what they request).

I had a building with a similar concealed space below the roof level; limited access (access door required maintenance key), prohibited storage, only mechanical and plumbing pipes. In fact, it had a 6'-0" deck height and was less than 20,000 sq.ft. area. Still, the AHJ required sprinkler protection in this area -- I think it was overkill, but they cited that it was a location of potential storage (which is very likely true). Anyways, best to check first and get something in writing.

Reply
Todd E Wyatt
9/26/2022 09:58:23 am

2021 IBC would define this space/area as an “ATTIC” (and the AHJ may agree) …

ATTIC. The space between the ceiling framing of the top story and the underside of the roof.

2021 IBC does not define “concealed” but it does reference “concealed” in the following contexts :

DRAFTSTOP. A material, device or construction installed to restrict the movement of air within open spaces of CONCEALED AREAS of building components such as crawl spaces, floor/ceiling assemblies, roof/ceiling assemblies and ATTICS.
FIREBLOCKING. Building materials, or materials approved for use as fireblocking, installed to resist the free passage of flame to other areas of the building through CONCEALED SPACES.

The IBC considers an ATTIC a "concealed space" but NOT all "concealed spaces" are ATTICS.

“Concealed” is not referenced in CHAPTER 9 FIRE PROTECTION AND LIFE SAFETY SYSTEMS which determines the SCOPING requirements where an Automatic Sprinkler System (ASPS) is required.
“ATTIC” is referenced (19) time in CHPATER 9 … (15) times in SECTION 903 AUTOMATIC SPRINKLER SYSTEMS :

903.3.1.2NFPA 13R sprinkler systems
Automatic sprinkler systems in Group R occupancies up to and including four stories in height in buildings not exceeding 60 feet (18 288 mm) in height above grade plane shall be permitted to be installed throughout in accordance with NFPA 13R.
The number of stories of Group R occupancies constructed in accordance with Sections 510.2 and 510.4 shall be measured from the horizontal assembly creating separate buildings.

903.3.1.2.1 Protection of decks and balconies.
Decks and balconies greater than 6 feet (1829 mm) above grade, greater than 4 feet (1219 mm) deep, with an area greater than 40 square feet (3.72 m2), and attached to new Group R-1 or R-2 occupancy buildings protected in accordance with Section 903.3.1.2 that are three or more stories in height and with 30 or more units, shall be protected with sprinklers under the balcony or deck framing and under ATTIC eaves when both of the following two conditions exists:
1.The building has an unsprinklered ATTIC.
2.The building has combustible siding.

903.3.1.2.3 ATTICS.
ATTIC protection shall be provided as follows:
1.ATTICS that are used or intended for living purposes or storage shall be protected by an automatic sprinkler system.
2.Where fuel-fired equipment is installed in an unsprinklered ATTIC, not fewer than one quick-response intermediate temperature sprinkler shall be installed above the equipment.
3.Where located in a building of Type III, Type IV or Type V construction designed in accordance with Section 510.2 or 510.4, ATTICS not required by Item 1 to have sprinklers shall comply with one of the following if the roof assembly is located more than 55 feet (16 764 mm) above the lowest level of required fire department vehicle access:
3.1.Provide automatic sprinkler system protection.
3.2.Construct the ATTIC using noncombustible materials.
3.3.Construct the ATTIC using fire-retardant-treated wood complying with Section 2303.2.
3.4.Fill the ATTIC with noncombustible insulation.
The height of the roof assembly shall be determined by measuring the distance from the lowest required fire vehicle access road surface adjacent to the building to the eave of the highest pitched roof, the intersection of the highest roof to the exterior wall, or the top of the highest parapet, whichever yields the greatest distance. For the purpose of this measurement, required fire vehicle access roads shall include only those roads that are necessary for compliance with Section 503 of the International Fire Code.
4.Group R-4, Condition 2 occupancy ATTICS not required by Item 1 to have sprinklers shall comply with one of the following:
4.1.Provide automatic sprinkler system protection.
4.2.Provide a heat detection system throughout the ATTIC that is arranged to activate the building fire alarm system.
4.3.Construct the ATTIC using noncombustible materials.
4.4.Construct the ATTIC using fire-retardant-treated wood complying with Section 2303.2.
4.5.Fill the ATTIC with noncombustible insulation.

The other (4) references to ATTIC are in SECTION 907 FIRE ALARM AND DETECTION SYSTEMS

Reply
Franck
9/26/2022 10:21:06 am

As confirmed by others, this is a concealed space (or unoccupied floor, whatever you want to call it) and it does apparently not require a sprinkler protection now. But on the long term ? I have seldom seen such nice “empty” spaces, out of sight, remain empty for a long time.
Normally filled with unused construction features (might be combustible), filters, empty cardboxes and crates, unused computer and electronic equipment, storage area for cleaning products…
It will end up as an attic in a house : storage area for all kind of stuff !
For that reason, if there is an accessible door or opening and if the floor can sustain some weight, I will sprinkler the area at least for an ordinary hazard occupancy.
I have even seen electrical rooms (normally empty except the electrical cabinets), locked and with strict limited access, filled with all kind of storage (generally old furnitures, spare parts and empty boxes)

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    SUBMIT A QUESTION
    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    ALL-ACCESS

    Picture
    GET ALL OUR TOOLS

    SUBSCRIBE

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    COMMUNITY

    Top April '25 Contributors
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    YOUR POST

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    PE EXAM

    Get 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
    SIGN ME UP!

    FILTERS

    All
    A1171
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    ASTM E1354
    Blog Thread
    Daily Discussion
    Design-documents
    EN 12845
    Explosion Protection
    Explosion-protection-prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable And Combustible Liquids
    Flammable-combustible-liquids
    FM Global
    Human-behavior
    IBC
    ICC 500
    IEBC
    IFC
    IMC
    IPC
    IRC
    ISO
    Means Of Egress
    NBC
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 1142
    NFPA 1221
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 16
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 220
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 241
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 307
    NFPA 30B
    NFPA 31
    NFPA 33
    NFPA 37
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 409
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 45
    NFPA 495
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 55
    NFPA 654
    NFPA 68
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 701
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 75
    NFPA 770
    NFPA 82
    NFPA 855
    NFPA 90A
    NFPA 92
    NFPA 96
    NICET
    OBC
    OSHA
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management
    Special Hazard Systems
    UFC 3-600-01
    UFC 4-021-01
    UFC 4-211-01
    UPC
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    ARCHIVES

    May 2025
    April 2025
    March 2025
    February 2025
    January 2025
    December 2024
    November 2024
    October 2024
    September 2024
    August 2024
    July 2024
    June 2024
    May 2024
    April 2024
    March 2024
    February 2024
    January 2024
    December 2023
    November 2023
    October 2023
    September 2023
    August 2023
    July 2023
    June 2023
    May 2023
    April 2023
    March 2023
    February 2023
    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    September 2022
    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016


    PE PREP SERIES

    SEE LEADERBOARD

    RSS Feed

Picture
​Home
Our Cause
The Blog
The Forum
PE Exam Prep
The Toolkit

MeyerFire University
​Pricing
Login
​Support
Contact Us
Picture

MeyerFire.com is a startup community built to help fire protection professionals shine.
Our goal is to improve fire protection practices worldwide. We promote the industry by creating helpful tools and resources, and by bringing together industry professionals to share their expertise.

​MeyerFire, LLC is a NICET Recognized Training Provider and International Code Council Preferred Education Provider.

All text, images, and media ​Copyright © 2016-2025 MeyerFire, LLC

We respect your privacy and personal data. See our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. 
The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

Discussions are solely for the purpose of peer review and the exchange of ideas. All comments are reviewed. Comments which do not contribute, are not relevant, are spam, or are disrespectful in nature may be removed. Information presented and opinions expressed should not be relied upon as a replacement for consulting services. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a small commission for orders placed elsewhere.

  • Blog
  • Forum
  • TOOLKIT
    • ALL TOOLS
    • BUY THE TOOLKIT
  • UNIVERSITY
    • ALL COURSES
    • JOIN THE UNIVERSITY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE PREP SERIES
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
    • TOOLKIT-ONLY LOGIN
    • UNIVERSITY LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • OUR CAUSE
    • ABOUT MEYERFIRE
    • JOB OPENINGS
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT