MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • ABOUT
    • CATALOG
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT
Picture

Calc Shoe Store Remote Area by Ignoring Walls?

1/3/2022

7 Comments

 
We have submitted plans for a new shoe store in an existing mall. The entire space is about 4,400 sqft and the stock room is 840 sqft with full-height walls.

The plans reviewer is requiring us to revise and resubmit using the calculation method in NFPA 13, 2016 Edition, citing Section A.23.4.4.2.

We are coming up short and the main (distribution pipe) is limited to 6".

Does this requirement seem reasonable?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
7 Comments
Dan Wilder
1/3/2022 07:32:14 am

I'm under the assumption that Room Design was the original hydraulic approach (I don't see an annex section for 23.4.4.2)? Does the space comply with the Room Design approach as defined in 11.2.3.3 & 12.10?

Even if it does, I would think if the main sales floor would require a full 1500 FT² design area and the HMRA would be just as bad?

Reply
Mike L
1/3/2022 08:02:38 am

A little more information is needed to give a complete, definitive response/advise.

My guess is you were calculating the Stock Room only utilizing the Room-Design Method of hydraulics. That is acceptable if the stock room is separated from the rest of the space by rated partitions. I would agree with that approach as Stock Rooms are generally more hydraulically demanding than the Sales Area. BUT the separations and the use of the Room Design method need to be communicated on the drawings so the AHJ is aware of that approach.

If the AHJ is recommending the Density Area method, then the 1,500 sf area is selected for the most hydraulically demanding area and ignoring walls. As you mentioned, your calculations do not work doing so. (retrofits of existing systems can be problematic that way), then perhaps you can utilize the area reduction allowance under section 11.2.3.2.3.

Whichever method you use, all the pertinent information needs to be indicated on the plans so it's clear to the AHJ what's being presented.

Reply
Travis Mack link
1/3/2022 08:13:54 am

What is the design density you are shooting for in the shoe storage area. Since many of these contain expanded plastics, you may be hitting the criteria for EH2. I have seen this many times in shoe stores. It is quite the challenge for a typical OH2 shell design. However, if you don't meet the criteria for room design, then you would need to extend past the walls and get the proper design area.

But, there is one option you may be able to use. Look at 23.4.4.2.4. This will require you to calculate the entire area and add a "phantom flow" to make up the difference if any. So, if you are EH2 criteria, then you could use high temp sprinklers and get the design area to 2000 sq ft. You then calculate the 846 sq ft. If the demand is <800 gpm, then you need to add a phantom flow to make up the difference to get to 800 gpm. Also, there is a 500 gpm hose allowance for that.

If you are able to use OH2, then you could possibly do a QR reduction and still apply the criteria for 23.4.4.2.4 since you are still less than the minimum design area for QR reduced OH2.

Hopefully that helps some.

Reply
Glenn Berger
1/3/2022 08:15:25 am

More information is required. Is there a fire rated separation between the spaces? What was originally submitted to the AHJ for approval?

Reply
Anthony
1/3/2022 08:20:57 am

Any mercantile space will be OH2 minimum, I'm assuming this store room has storage less than 12' high. So you'd be looking at similar hazard. Even if you are using room design the sales floor should require the same density over the whole floor thus the 1500 sq ft would be best used in this scenario.

Reply
Alex
1/3/2022 09:02:38 am

Very common approach having the stock room designed utilizing the room design method. Make sure its clearly shown that the room is rated. Shouldn't be a problem if the information is portrayed correctly.

Thanks,
Alex

Reply
Jesse
1/3/2022 09:03:52 am

You're in a tough spot.

Room design is challenging because you may not have adequate listed fire separation. I rarely see adequate listed separation between these areas. As such, a CMDA approach and full design area is indicated.

The sales floor is OH2 at best. But the stock room may indeed be a higher hazard class. We get wrapped up in the magic 12-foot number, but remember that only is a benchmark for Class I-III. Class IV, Group A, and Expanded Group A is lower. You may very well have expanded Group A so your threshold is 5-ft and you'll need to protect as EH2

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    ALL-ACCESS

    Picture
    GET ALL OUR TOOLS

    SUBSCRIBE

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    COMMUNITY

    Top ​Feb 2023 Contributors
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    YOUR POST

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    PE EXAM

    Get 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
    SIGN ME UP!

    FILTERS

    All
    A117.1
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    ASTM E1354
    Daily Discussion
    Design Documents
    EN 12845
    Explosion Protection & Prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable & Combustible LIquids
    FM Global
    Human Behavior
    IBC
    ICC-500
    IFC
    IMC
    IPC
    IRC
    ISO
    Means Of Egress
    NBC
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 1142
    NFPA 1221
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 16
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 220
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 241
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 30B
    NFPA 33
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 409
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 495
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 55
    NFPA 654
    NFPA 68
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 701
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 75
    NFPA 770
    NFPA 82
    NFPA 855
    NFPA 90A
    NFPA 92
    NFPA 96
    NICET
    OBC
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management
    Special Hazard Systems
    UFC 3 600 01
    UFC 3-600-01
    UFC 4-021-01
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    ARCHIVES

    March 2023
    February 2023
    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    September 2022
    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016


    PE PREP SERIES

    Fire Protection PE Exam Prep
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    RSS Feed

Picture
​Home
Our Cause
The Blog
The Forum
PE Exam Prep
The Toolkit

MeyerFire University
​Pricing
Login
​Support
Contact Us
Picture

MeyerFire.com is a startup community built to help fire protection professionals shine.
Our goal is to improve fire protection practices worldwide. We promote the industry by creating helpful tools and resources, and by bringing together industry professionals to share their expertise.

​MeyerFire, LLC is an International Code Council Preferred Education Provider.

All text, images, and media ​Copyright © 2023 MeyerFire, LLC

We respect your privacy and personal data. See our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. 
The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

Discussions are solely for the purpose of peer review and the exchange of ideas. All comments are reviewed. Comments which do not contribute, are not relevant, are spam, or are disrespectful in nature may be removed. Information presented and opinions expressed should not be relied upon as a replacement for consulting services. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a small commission for orders placed elsewhere.

  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • ABOUT
    • CATALOG
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT