Is there any adopted or proposed sprinkler design criteria for Electric Vehicle charging stations that will be included in new parking garages?
The 2022 Edition of NFPA 13 is increasing the design for parking garages from Ordinary Hazard Group I to Group II, but I have not found anything about protecting the charging stations. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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When is a fire pump pressure relief valve required?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a case where two (2) x 2,000 gpm existing electric fire pumps (primary duty pumps) are available.
Now, the system design demand is increasing from 4,000 gpm to 12,000 gpm due to a scope change, so we are bringing in new electric fire pumps (as primary/duty) to meet the higher demand. All new fire pumps could be either four (4) x 2,000 gpm or two (2) x 4,000 gpm towards meeting the 12,000 gpm system capacity. All performance test curves are checked for all existing fire pumps; they are almost new and meeting the required residual pressure at 2,000 gpm and their performance is close to matching the original equipment manufacturer curves; so these existing pumps need to be retained. Now we do have space constraints, so we'd like to use the two (2) x 4,000 gpm pumps, and their pressure characteristics would be the same as the existing pumps. Would NFPA 13/20 (and any other relevant NFPA standard here) permit two different pump capacities for the system? Would having different pump capacities be concerning, or cause issues? Is there anything else we should be considering here regarding the capacities? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a unique quandary that I haven't run into before. We have an overperforming fire pump.
It was factory tested, we have a factory performance curve of 68 psi churn, 52 psi at 500 gpm (100%), and 35 psi at 750 gpm (150%). Once it was field installed, we were 1-3 psi over on Churn, 50%, and 100%, but +10 psi on the 150%. We had a net pressure of 45 psi at the 150% test when, based on the factory curve, the net should have been 35 psi. We checked the nameplate for the match, nameplate for the expected pressure at 150%; they all match. The supply for the test in the field got pretty low (about 25 psi suction at 150% flow). The only unique thing I can see about this setup is that we have a very tight room and had to meet a military spec to flow through the flowmeter and both run outside as well as back to the recirculation. As a result, the path from the pump discharge to the outside has to navigate through nine (9) elbows in order to get enough clearance upstream and downstream for the flowmeter in this very tiny pump room. Could a test header with that many bends be affecting the net pressure on the 150% test? Is this considered a failure? As this is military, it'll be by the book and I'm concerned that an overperforming pump might set up future tests for failure if I can't identify why it would be overperforming at the 150%. Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a new construction building that's wood frame (Type III-B), and we have an 8-inch horizontal standpipe. It's hung from wooden trapeze (two 2x4's) spanning wood floor trusses. Per NFPA 13-2019 Section 17.1.7.1, hangers and their components shall be ferrous metal.
Is a ferrous metal trapeze (steel angle or pipe span) permitted to span wood floor trusses? If so, must the trapeze avoid attaching to the web components of the truss? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Would a dry fire suppression system be affected by freezing temperatures?
I work at a facility that had a glass sprinkler break, no contact or anything, and of course the water came out as it should. We've had freezing temps for the last few days, but where it broke was in an 74 degree room, so not frozen. Any ideas on why this would have happened? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I understand if a duct is wider than 4-ft (1 m) that there needs to be a sprinkler under the duct.
But what if the duct is just below the ceiling? Does a sprinkler also need to be above the duct? I have a group of ducts with a combined with of 16'-6" (5 m) with the highest point of the duct 10 inches (25 cm) under the ceiling. Does there need to be a sprinkler above and below the ducts? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I purchased a commercial condo recently. It’s been vacant and unfinished since 2013. It’s a shell, picture is below. It has 5 residential condos on top and 5 commercial condos on first floor, in a 3 story building. All residential units were sold and have been occupied since. One commercial unit was also built and has been occupied as a salon with a U & O. There are no sprinklers, no fire room. They were going off of 2006 IBC code.
My architect prepared stamped plans with no sprinklers using the separated building scenario. It has a 2-hour horizontal separation, 3-5 hour vertical, no access to second floors. The plan was denied for sprinklers to be installed. Now, I certainly understand safety, but it’s almost impossible to install now after 12 years. Can you help me decipher mixed use B (1st floor) and R-3 (2nd and 3rd one unit)? Is this approach allowed by code, or is the code official correct? Is a self-contained fire area allowed to be its own building? Please help, thanks. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Designers and engineers get knocked (rightfully so) all the time for not living "in the real world".
I'm one of those designers. I've never installed any of these systems myself, but I want to know what advice those in the field would wish their designers and engineers knew. What is one error or issue that you've seen that was due to a designer having a lack of field experience? Pipe lengths? Obstructions? Elevators? Heights? Fab methods? What have you seen missed that could have been right the first time if they had field experience? Looking for ways to keep the field from hating me while acknowledging that I don't come with that level of experience. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project and have gotten into an internal debate. The project has four diesel fire pumps in one pump house.
During testing, are we allowed to run all four at the same time? Or do we need to run each separately as we do normally to reduce the chance of blowing out a main? Anyone have insight on this? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does anyone have experience in designing suppression for a warehouse that will store boats on racks?
I will appreciate any information. Which standard would even be applicable? Do we treat them like high-piled combustible storage per Chapter 32 of the IFC? What will be target hazard considering the fuel in the boat? Is there any limitation that how much they can keep inside the boat? Thanks for the input on this; I'm having a hard time on where to get started. Editor's Note: A Fire Protection Research Foundation on Marina and Boatyard Indoor Rack Storage Sprinkler Protection has been submitted and can be viewed here: PDF LINK Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project that includes a Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility (SCIF).
How do you properly seal an open drain that travels through a SCIF wall to the outside? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I had a client ask about Oxygen-Reduced Systems (ORS), aka Hypoxic air technology (displacing ambient oxygen in an enclosed environment such as in warehouses). I did a quick read with what's available on Wiki, FM and NFPA. But even my go-to suppression people have hardly encountered these. Testing has been very specific.
Just to increase my knowledge, does anyone here have an practical experience in these? Are these systems really being installed? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can full height walls within a room create an obstructed construction situation in an otherwise unobstructed construction building?
As an example, you have a room with full height walls and a single exposed beam (in noncombustible construction) with the distance from the centerline of the beam to both parallel walls less than 7'-6". If allowed to define this as obstructed construction, a single sprinkler 1" to 6" below the bottom of the beam may be sufficient. If not, it may require a sprinkler on both sides of the beam. In a multiple-office type of occupancy this could save a lot of sprinklers. This example is assuming following all the rules for obstructed construction and the depth of the beam being such that you can't use the obstruction to sprinkler discharge rules to avoid the obstruction. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Topic: Water Delivery Time in Single Interlock Preaction Systems Question:
I'm currently designing a single-interlock preaction system and I'm seeking clarification about the water delivery time requirements under NFPA 13 (2013). Section 7.3.2.2 mentions that the system size cannot exceed 1,000 automatic sprinklers but doesn't specify the water delivery time for single interlock systems. On the other hand, Section 7.3.2.3 clearly states that double interlock preaction systems must deliver water within no more than 60 seconds. Does this mean that single interlock systems are not required to adhere to a specific timeframe for water delivery? In my view, it makes sense to not include a delivery time for single interlock systems, since water should already be at the sprinkler prior to activation. I'm interested in others' views or experiences in this area. Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am working on a permit for a 1,500 sqft (750 sqft/ floor) new construction live/work building R-2 in California (2022 California Building Code, which is based on IBC). It has a 1-bedroom apartment above with only "work" space below.
The building code allows for Live/Work R-2 to be protected with NFPA 13R. In the building code the only uses not allowed in the "work" area of Live/work are Group H & S. Where all of this gets hazy is that I interpret the code as 13R being allowed to protect this whole building regardless of use except for uses S or H. For instance would a small pizza joint be allowed in this "work" space as long as it did not have special hazards that would require an ANSL or NFPA 13 system? Or is Live/Work with 13R just purely limited to office, barber, professional space, etc.? From multiple angles I am trying to understand the true limits of Live/work when there are no local ordinances that limit the "work" space use except S & H. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a building that has both a free standing fire department connection (FDC) and a post-indicator valve (PIV) out at the drive entrance to the single-story building as requested by the Fire Marshal.
Construction has now started up for the site and the Fire Marshal is saying there is a code requirement for the PIV and FDC to be 50-ft apart and wants them moved. He is unsure of the exact distance, but he insists this is a code requirement and that it's not a local requirement. For reference, we are under the 2015 IBC/IFC and 2013 NFPA code editions. Is there any requirement for the PIV and FDC to be 50-ft apart? I cannot find any requirement like this in the IBC, IFC, or NFPA 13 or 24. There are sections in both NFPA 13 and 24 that vaguely say PIVs shall be protected against mechanical damage, but they give no minimum distance from objects. IFC/IBC both list minimum 36-in clearance around the FDC. I think the Fire Marshal might be confusing the 40ft requirement from buildings for the PIV, or, this is a local preference, but they do insist otherwise. I know at the end of the day the Fire Marshal gets whatever they want for the PIV and FDC placement, but I really want to make sure that there is not some hidden requirement I cannot find. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a storage building that is non-sprinklered, it only has fire alarm. The ceiling height in some areas of the building with storage of tires is up to 10-ft in height, and others up to 15-ft in height.
How many tires can be stored? Is there a limit to the amount of storage? Does storing on tread or on side matter? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a project in the Miami area where there are some exterior glass panels that need to be 1-hour fire rated.
I specified the glass to be fire rated type, but it prices are coming back too high. The contractor is looking into an alternative of providing fire sprinkler protection on the inside face of the glass. Is this a feasible idea? The wall that the glass is part of requires the rating due to its being within 10' of some adjacent exterior glass. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a fire sprinkler tree system that has a 6" centerline down from a metal deck (mains and lines).
Since an air release valve is required at the end of the system, what are our options for installation? All the options I can find are too tall to fit with our piping so close to the deck. We are not able to lower the piping due to other trades. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a steel aircraft storage hanger Group 1. It's approximately 50-ft high with exposed steel columns requiring a fire rating per NFPA 409-2022 Edition.
The steel will not be fireproofed but will be protected with sprinklers in accordance with NFPA 409 5.6.3.4. Can pendent sprinklers, installed sideways, be used to satisfy NFPA 409 for column protection? In the past we have protected the columns with sidewall sprinklers spaced according to 409 and on alternating sides of the column. Then the sidewalls were changed to pendent sprinklers installed horizontally to provide better spray distribution on the columns as the sidewall spray tended to (in theory at least) bounce the spray back in stead of vertically. This approach has been accepted by EOR and AHJs alike. NFPA 409 states that "wetting of the lower sprinkler should be considered" although multiple level sprinklers were never used. I'm not sure how this plays in. I recall reading that pendents installed horizontally could be used for column protection due to better spray distribution, however, I cannot find that in code. The client is not open to fireproofing or intumescent paint; column sprinkler protection is in the bit and is going to be used. All is appreciated! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does anyone know of any literature summarizing standpipe design changes history for the last 130 years or so?
Something to the effect of:
With more enforcement of 5-year standpipe flow testing in our area we find ourselves spending a lot of time trying to locate older versions of NFPA and NBFU to see the design basis at the time of construction to determine testing procedure. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can an assisted living facility that installed a an NFPA 13 compliant system which was only required to be a 13R now remove the dry attic part of the system?
They have had corrosion issues and leaks they are wanting to avoid. The only reason they installed the 13 system is initially they envisioned possible adding a skilled care section which is now not happening. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is there any requirement for a standpipe to be installed due to travel distance between stairwells in a 3-story R-2 building?
I am reviewing plans of a U-shaped apartment building with two stairwells on the ends. The distance between them is about 470 feet. We are under the 2018 IFC. If not required by code, would you as the AHJ consider requiring them for improved fire operations? Thanks for any feedback. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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