Vault with Banker Boxes "Deep-Seated" Hazard?

9/5/2024

Is a library vault filled with Class A banker boxes filled with paper on multiple shelves considered a deep seated fire hazard?

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9 Comments

Glenn Berger

9/5/2024 08:14:40 am

Paper fires are more likely to be surface-based and not deep-seated type fires.

It is possible to have a paper fire start very, very slowly and thereby appear to be similar to a deep-seated fire condition.

Ricardo Gonzales Jr

9/5/2024 08:30:33 am

This sounds like a mental exercise. I agree with Glenn, but also what is needed is data to back up the assumptions for this type of fire. Don't get caught up in the 'What If's and go down the rabbit hole. A fair topic for a master's thesis but not a doctorial one.

Robert Kessenich

9/5/2024 08:43:05 am

I agree with you Ricardo. I would worry more about the egress from and through the room than I would the boxes and paper. If the boxes are stacked and leaning where they could impede egress by falling...then I make the suggestion of safer storage practice.

Dan Wilder

9/5/2024 08:42:52 am

I would say borderline yes based on the description of the room and storage. You've got limited access, large fuel load, shielding from solid shelves (assumption here) for lateral fire spread/across isles, possibility of collapse of what is typically a lesser structural frame strength when it comes to this type of shelving or on the flip side, if this is a larger storage rack there are now multiple layers of height & depth for combustible materials.

My LiNK is being stupid right now, but a PI popped up attempting to put a definition to the "Deep-Seated Fire" that doesn't fit entirely but does share some of the characteristics of the scenario.

3.3.2* Deep-Seated Fire.
Combustion that occurs within a fuel mass and has restricted access to ambient air where the
configuration of the fuel restricts heat flow from the combustion zone to the surroundings.
A.3.3.2 Deep-Seated Fire.
A characteristic of this type of combustion is the slow rate of heat losses from the reaction zone.
Thus, the fuel remains hot enough to react with oxygen, even though the rate of reaction, which
is controlled by diffusion processes, is extremely slow. Deep-seated fires can continue to burn
for many weeks, for example, in bales of cotton and jute and heaps of sawdust. A deep-seated
fire ceases to burn only when either all the available oxygen or fuel has been consumed or the
fuel surface is at too low a temperature to react.
A deep-seated fire is not subject to immediate extinguishment. Deep-seated fires usually are
extinguished by reducing the fuel temperature, either directly by application of a heat-absorbing
medium, such as water, or by blanketing with an inert gas. The medium slows the reaction rate
to the point where heat generated by oxidation is less than heat losses to surroundings. This
causes the temperature to fall below the level necessary for spontaneous ignition after removal
of the inert atmosphere

https://docinfofiles.nfpa.org/files/AboutTheCodes/12/12_F2024_GFE_AAA_FD_PIResponses.pdf#:~:text=3.3.2%2A%20Deep-Seated%20Fire.%20Combustion%20that%20occurs%20within%20a,rate%20of%20heat%20losses%20from%20the%20reaction%20zone.

Pete H

9/5/2024 10:13:42 am

Don't know how deep-seated it is due to the bankers boxes being cardboard if I'm not mistaken. Like they do get dusty in storage and I could see that making the chance for a deep seated fire similar to sawdust.

I'd probably just see if there's any difference in protection for a whether this is deep seated or whether this is just paper storage for this arrangement. If there is, then I'd worry more about classifying it. Especially if those multiple shelves are solid and tall.

Jack G

9/5/2024 10:15:31 am

I m trying to figure how spontaneous combustion can occur in a closed box within metal frames with doors surrounded by concrete on 5 of the 6 sides.
Wiring — no don’t ever remember electrical wiring in there.
So the heat must come from the money burning in the vault, in bags or pallets.
A fire there could get hot enough / heat the box fronts to make whatever combustibles inside the box to burn.
So protect the vault and all is well. Gas/water/ preaction/ wet system/ dry system.

Mark Harris

9/5/2024 01:04:59 pm

This question often comes up for clean agent systems and people argue it both ways. NFPA 2001 says no deep seated fires but some opinions are that the detection system actuation and clean agent discharge would be before the fire developed into a deep seated fire (incipient or surface fire stage). If you classify it deep seated for gas system NFPA would be CO2 and extended hold period which has life safety concerns.

There are many clean agent installs protecting record storage. Often in a building with a sprinkler system. Based on engineering judgement. And often the racking makes intermediate level sprinkler installation a challenge.

Great question. Wish I could tell you there was a concrete answer.

Jesse

9/5/2024 01:54:28 pm

Speaking only for myself and not an NFPA technical committee, I wouldn't consider that a deep seated fire

9/5/2024 02:01:29 pm

It is interesting to note that a bulk paper storage is regarded as a deep-seated fire hazard in table 5.4.2.1 of NFPA 12.

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Vault with Banker Boxes "Deep-Seated" Hazard?

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