MeyerFire
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • About
    • Catalog
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT
Picture

Sprinkler Required for Open-Air Courtyard?

1/27/2022

17 Comments

 
I have an existing office building and we are renovating one floor. The building has an existing sprinkler system.

In the middle of the office floor, there is an outdoor patio (I believe all non-combustible) and it is open to the air above. It is 6' x 6' and surrounded by glass on all 4 sides.

There are currently no sprinklers protecting this courtyard and we are being told that there needs to be.

I am not sure which part of NFPA 13 I would even look at since Section 8.15 only discusses exterior projections and the like. Nothing about an open-air courtyard.

I would appreciate any help. There is room to install dry sidewalls above the glass even though the sprinklers would be watering the outside.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
17 Comments
Dan Wilder
1/27/2022 07:05:09 am

No structure overhead to provide heat collection=no sprinklers.

This isn't going to fall under any sort of exposure protection requirements and there is no open floor to floor ability for smoke/heat to transfer.

I would request what section of the IFC/NFPA (or amendment) that is being referenced to provide compliance with.

Reply
Anthony
1/27/2022 07:17:50 am

As Dan said, no roof/ceiling no sprinkler.

It may be a worthwhile exercise to investigate egress from that area.

Reply
Mike L
1/27/2022 07:42:59 am

Perhaps the AHJ is requesting protection for both sides of the glass around the courtyard, or misinterpreting the drawings as a skylight.

Otherwise, have a quick chat with the AHJ and ask for clarification.

Reply
Pete H
1/27/2022 07:44:23 am

Agree with the comments. No NFPA 13 guidance.

If FM or AHJ is telling you it needs protection, provide the one dry sidewall head (should be more than enough to protect a 6' x 6' space).

If the client is telling you it needs protection, remind them they need to pay the extra couple hundred to potentially over a thousand bucks for the dry head, engineering, and labor and see if they still want it. If they do, charge them and provide it.

(In my opinion. Take with grain of salt).

Reply
Glenn Berger
1/27/2022 08:18:02 am

The requirement to provide some sort of fire protection system comes from NFPA 101, with the fact that anyone in the courtyard must (re-)enter the building to get to an egress point.

You can protect the glass with closely space sprinklers, you can provide manual; fire alarm pull stations in the courtyard, fire alarm notification appliances, etc.

Reply
Jay
1/27/2022 06:27:41 pm

Hi Glenn,
Where in NFPA 101 does it say that sprinkler protection is required in a courtyard?

Reply
Jesse
1/27/2022 08:23:46 am

The problem is, without canopies / overhangs, there is noting to collect the heat to activate the sprinkler. So if you protected the courtyard with dry horizontal sidewall sprinklers along the perimeter, there's no mechanism to allow them to operate.

Reply
SCHULMAN
1/27/2022 08:58:07 am

you should get clarification - what I hear is that sprinklers are required on the inside of the glass (deluge style) to protect the interior from a fire that will start when someone outside smoking starts one .... check for "atrium" references in the code and ask the architect if the wall between the "atrium" and the interior is required to be rated.

Reply
Patrick D
1/27/2022 08:59:08 am

I agree with all the comments above.

In my capacity as a free-lance designer with some very loyal clients here in the Northeast, I am often approached by project managers with similar situations.

They say some version of "I am bidding this project or working on a project and 'They' told me I need sprinklers in (insert non-required area)". My client asks if I am aware of a code that would require coverage and usually ask if I can I look into it. Unfortunately, it is much harder to prove a negative then a positive in these situations.

Whoever "They" is in this case as stating these code sections exist, so I typically request that "They" point out the code section in question. If not, you have to somehow review all of NFPA #13 chasing something that in most cases is not there. If they identify what code section they are referring to, maybe they are right and the area needs coverage, or in some cases its a misinterpretation of the code or the drawings.

Reinforcing some of the opinions above, the most likely may be the individual telling you that protection is necessary is interpreting the the courtyard as a skylight.

Good luck to you, and I hope you can clear it up.

Reply
Todd Wyatt
1/27/2022 09:06:07 am

The scoping Code would either be the IBC and/or the NFPA 101 Life Safety Code, depending on what the jurisdiction has adopted. The adopted Code references other Codes and Standards, including NFPA 13, but only to the "extent to the reference to the standard." IBC 903.3.1.1 states "Where provisions of this code require that a building or portion thereof be equipped with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with this section, sprinklers shall be installed throughout in accordance with NFPA 13 ..." The IBC determines WHERE sprinklers are requuired (903.2 Where Required) and NFPA 13 identifies HOW sprinklers are to be installed, tested, and maintained. Exempted spaces in NFPA 13 are not applicable unless the IBC (or NFPA 101) includes these exempted spaces.

In this instance, the exterior space surrounded on (4) sides by a building is defined as a "court" (an open, uncovered space, unobstructed to the sky, bounded on three or more sides by the exterior building walls or other enclosed devices.") If the AHJ argues that this is an "atrium", point to IBC Ch 2 for the definitition (a vertical space that is closed at the top ...). The IBC does not include sprinkler requirements for exterior spaces except for certain "exterior balconies, decks, and ground floor patios" of "dwelling units and sleepin units" and in "open-ended corridors and associated exterior stairways". Chances are, the AHJ may be applying these non-applicable conditions to your court.

The AHJ is required per IBC Ch 1 Scope and Administration to enforce the provisions of the Code and to render interpretations IF they are in compliance with the intent and the purpose of the Code but they are not permitted to require additional requirements not per the Code.

Reply
Jon Sullivan
1/28/2022 08:31:18 am

I think there is a worthwhile discussion to be had here.

"Exempted spaces in NFPA 13 are not applicable unless the IBC (or NFPA 101) includes these exempted spaces"

In my experience, most AHJs interpret this as IBC 903.2 tells you if sprinklers are required by the occupancy group. Then it must be installed per 903.3.1.1 (NFPA 13) and those exemptions in NFPA 13 can be taken and the building be considered fully sprinklered.

Additionally this is reinforced, in my opinion, by the footnotes of Table 504.3 and Table 504.4 which state "sprinklered throughout .... in accordance with 903.3.1.1" which is the installation standard section.

Curious to here yours and others thoughts.

Reply
Jack G
1/27/2022 09:32:47 am

Agree. Protection of windows, structure, path along egress. Have had to do that in a lot of buildings with egress thru a courtyard.

Reply
David Branson
1/27/2022 09:33:17 am

As a life-safety measure driven by NFPA 101, not 13, one could provide a dry sidewall head near the entrance and a weatherproof manual pull station nearby to activate it.

Reply
Wes
1/27/2022 09:37:53 am

How?

Reply
Anthony
1/27/2022 12:17:37 pm

A one head deluge system, that'll be cheep.

Alex
1/27/2022 09:56:52 pm

Your answer wont come from NFPA 13, as stated above. You need to look into the IBC and NFPA 101. Although, here, you wont find a definite answer. If you ask me, the open courtyard does not require protection. Depending on the size, it would require two means of egress but you are well below that.

Also, I would not simply add a head to please a code official. Picking up the phone and discussing the issue not only saves time, but provides a learning experience for both parties. I never overlook the value in a 5-10 minute phone call.

Good luck with the design,
Alex

Reply
Jerry
1/28/2022 09:48:19 am

First question out of my mouth would be, "Please show me the code or standard that states that".

Some times, as pointed out by several previous comments, it is someone's faulty memory of a long-ago code that no longer exists or has been modified (we all have those one or two floating around in the noggin). Or more often than not, it's a simple misinterpretation of an existing standard.

Either way, the onus of proof is not on you, its on the person making the assertion that they are required.

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    Picture
    Why Sponsor?

    ALL-ACCESS

    Picture
    GET ALL OUR TOOLS

    SUBSCRIBE

    Subscribe and learn something new each day:
    I'm Interested In:

    COMMUNITY

    Top ​Jan 2023 Contributors
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    YOUR POST

    SUBMIT A QUESTION

    PE EXAM

    Get 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
    SIGN ME UP!

    FILTERS

    All
    A117.1
    ABA
    ADA
    ASCE 7
    ASME A17.1
    ASTM E1354
    Daily Discussion
    Design Documents
    EN 12845
    Explosion Protection & Prevention
    Fire Detection And Alarm Systems
    Fire Dynamics
    Flammable & Combustible LIquids
    FM Global
    Human Behavior
    IBC
    ICC-500
    IFC
    IMC
    IPC
    IRC
    ISO
    Means Of Egress
    NBC
    NFPA 1
    NFPA 10
    NFPA 101
    NFPA 11
    NFPA 110
    NFPA 1142
    NFPA 1221
    NFPA 13
    NFPA 13D
    NFPA 13R
    NFPA 14
    NFPA 15
    NFPA 16
    NFPA 17A
    NFPA 20
    NFPA 2001
    NFPA 214
    NFPA 22
    NFPA 220
    NFPA 24
    NFPA 241
    NFPA 25
    NFPA 291
    NFPA 30
    NFPA 33
    NFPA 400
    NFPA 409
    NFPA 415
    NFPA 495
    NFPA 497
    NFPA 5000
    NFPA 502
    NFPA 54
    NFPA 55
    NFPA 654
    NFPA 68
    NFPA 70
    NFPA 701
    NFPA 72
    NFPA 75
    NFPA 82
    NFPA 855
    NFPA 90A
    NFPA 92
    NFPA 96
    NICET
    OBC
    Passive Building Systems
    PE Prep Guide
    PE Prep Series
    PE Sample Problems
    Poll
    Smoke Management
    Special Hazard Systems
    UFC 3 600 01
    UFC 3-600-01
    UFC 4-021-01
    Updates
    Water Based Fire Suppression
    Weekly Exams


    ARCHIVES

    February 2023
    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    September 2022
    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    November 2016
    October 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016


    PE PREP SERIES

    Fire Protection PE Exam Prep
    SEE LEADERBOARD

    RSS Feed

Picture
​Home
Our Cause
The Blog
The Forum
PE Exam Prep
The Toolkit

MeyerFire University
​Pricing
Login
​Support
Contact Us
Picture

MeyerFire.com is a startup community built to help fire protection professionals shine.
Our goal is to improve fire protection practices worldwide. We promote the industry by creating helpful tools and resources, and by bringing together industry professionals to share their expertise.

​MeyerFire, LLC is an International Code Council Preferred Education Provider.

All text, images, and media ​Copyright © 2023 MeyerFire, LLC

We respect your privacy and personal data. See our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. 
The views, opinions, and information found on this site represent solely the author and do not represent the opinions of any other party, nor does the presented material assume responsibility for its use. Fire protection and life safety systems constitute a critical component for public health and safety and you should consult with a licensed professional for proper design and code adherence.

Discussions are solely for the purpose of peer review and the exchange of ideas. All comments are reviewed. Comments which do not contribute, are not relevant, are spam, or are disrespectful in nature may be removed. Information presented and opinions expressed should not be relied upon as a replacement for consulting services. Some (not all) outbound links on this website, such as Amazon links, are affiliate-based where we receive a small commission for orders placed elsewhere.

  • Blog
  • Forum
  • THE TOOLKIT
    • SUBMIT AN IDEA
    • BACKFLOW DATABASE*
    • CLEAN AGENT ESTIMATOR*
    • CLOUD CEILING CALCULATOR
    • DOMESTIC DEMAND*
    • FIRE FLOW CALCULATOR*
    • FIRE PUMP ANALYZER*
    • FIRE PUMP DATABASE*
    • FRICTION LOSS CALCULATOR
    • HANGER SPACER*
    • IBC TRANSLATOR*
    • K-FACTOR SELECTOR*
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('19 ONLY)
    • NFPA 13 EDITION TRANSLATOR ('99-'22)*
    • LIQUIDS ANALYZER*
    • OBSTRUCTION CALCULATOR
    • OBSTRUCTIONS AGAINST WALL*
    • PLUMBING FIXTURE COUNTS
    • QUICK RESPONSE AREA REDUCTION
    • REMOTE AREA ANALYZER*
    • SPRINKLER DATABASE*
    • SPRINKLER FLOW*
    • SYSTEM ESTIMATOR*
    • TEST & DRAIN CALCULATOR
    • THRUST BLOCK CALCULATOR
    • TRAPEZE CALCULATOR
    • UNIT CONVERTER
    • VOLUME & COMPRESSOR CALCULATOR
    • WATER STORAGE*
    • WATER SUPPLY (US)
    • WATER SUPPLY (METRIC)
  • UNIVERSITY
    • About
    • Catalog
    • CONTENT LIBRARY
  • PE Exam
    • PE Forum & Errata
    • PE Store
    • PE Tools
    • PE Prep Series
    • PE 100-Day Marathon
  • LOGIN
  • PRICING
    • SOFTWARE & TRAINING
    • STORE
  • THE CAUSE
    • ABOUT US
    • BECOME AN INSTRUCTOR
    • HELP/SUPPORT