How to Navigate 'Deceitful' Building Owners?

9/28/2022

I come from a consulting perspective, working for contractors and architects, but I have a question that I would appreciate others' perspective on, especially other consultants and AHJs.

I've been in multiple project meetings where an architect or building owner for a warehouse or storage area has suggested (not outright said, but either hinted or suggested) that they'll just wait until the project is completed to store however they want with whatever they want to store.

This is usually when we're trying to figure out commodities and design criteria for large storage areas, and the owner is far less concerned about the sprinkler system suppressing a fire and much more concerned that an ESFR system or in-rack sprinklers are 'overkill' or too expensive.

A big piece of this is education and advocating for proper protection of their assets. I get that part. Many owners get that too, so I don't want to say that it's always bad, but I've just had a few projects and one here recently where a building owner directed a Fitter in the field to 'not install the in-rack sprinklers' because they didn't want them (even though it had been discussed at length), also saying that they were going to move around their plastics however they wanted after our guys left the job.

I see this as a major issue.

I can put it in writing, put disclaimers on the drawings, document what information we do get from the owner, and I can try to educate an owner, but ultimately its not always a situation where I'm going to convince them of anything they're not open to hearing.

Part of it is legal, which I think we generally do our due diligence in that respect. But the other part is just practical - trying to create a situation where the system actually has a chance to suppress a fire.

How do you navigate these situations, or recommend that I do?

How do you address owners like this who might be intentionally deceiving the engineering and contracting teams to keep costs low knowing full-well that they will store whatever they want, however they want after we all leave?

Is this something, as an AHJ, you want tipped off?

In some cases (some of these areas) we don't have strong enforcement bodies so building owners are left a little to themselves and their insurer visits to catch anything after we're off the job.

Thanks for your input, sorry for the long-winded question.

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17 Comments

Glenn Berger

9/28/2022 08:08:11 am

1) Document, document, document!

2) Go with the worse case scenario.

3) Potential visit the client's other facility to see there process.

Good luck, we have all been there before and will always continue to "fight" this battle.

Corey Eppinghaus

9/28/2022 08:09:01 am

I would say you document how it was when the building was done and sign offs provided, if you really want to you could contact Fire Prevention and tip them off as it would be Building Code till occupancy then Fire Code after at least in Ontario and if the two departments have a good working relationship FP should be able to act once the storage gets out of hand or higher hazard items show up.

Alex

9/28/2022 08:30:15 am

Hi,

As Corey and and Glenn mentioned, you should first document and outline exactly what your system can protect against. This should go in more detail than simple notes on a drawing. A narrative should be provided that explains storage arrangement and commodities.

In the past, I have had open discussions with the AHJ about what the storage arrangements will look like, what is required to be maintained (clearance to sprinklers/maximum storage height) etc. This gives the Fire Department or inspector clear items to look for when they complete their inspections down the line.

Thanks,
Alex

William Pierce

10/10/2022 04:21:14 pm

never heard of this "narrative to the AHJ", that's good to know though.

Thanks

Dale

10/14/2022 02:24:44 pm

I do most of my work in the State of Massachusetts. Part of our State Amended Building Code Requirements is to provide a Fire Narrative that details all of the Fire Systems being installed as part of the construction project. This document is submitted as part of the Permit process.

Mike

9/28/2022 08:36:48 am

If they have a well trained insurance underwriter, they'll be hard pressed to get insurance for an underdesigned fire sprinkler system.

Also, manj AHJs require a high piled storage permit to be completed by an FPA that ensures the correct system is being installed and it has to be renewed and inspected regularly to prevent the scenario you've mentioned.

I would not tip anyone off. This could damage your reputation.

Document, document, document.

Jim link

9/28/2022 09:04:53 am

100% on the spot. Just follow your contract, complete it and move on. This client won’t learn. You won’t change their mind and there are hundreds of better more responsible clients out there.

Dan Wilder

9/28/2022 08:56:57 am

TL;DR - Documentation and following your contractual scope of work. Beyond that, you open yourself to liability.

Get the Owners Certificate (per Section 4.2 of 13-19') and General Information (Per 28.6 of 13-19') filled out and signed at the beginning of the project. Provide an design and install that complies with the protection schemes of those hazards per approved plans and calculations as prescribed within NFPA/Insurance requirements and the AHJ.

If the owner wants to change something up, get it in writing, revise submittals & installation plans accordingly, get approvals, and perform your scope of work per that revision.

Beyond that, you stray from your contract and contractual responsibilities and may put yourself in a situation that you make your self responsible (even partially from a legal view) for the owners failures or attempts to stray. Hearsay without proof is a dangerous road for a company/firm. IF there is a working relationship with the AHJ, giving them a heads up isn't out of the question, but I believe there is a line.

If the owner say "I'll put the racks in later", the approved design and install is for racks (with provisions for outlets, new risers, etc...), the building final comes and no racks are installed, get it in writing on the inspection report that racks are to be installed at a later date per approved (if your approved plans don't already exclude that scope), you as a contractor have complied with your scope of work (I'm assuming that that scope was deleted and money deducted..or at least a paper trail of the scope reduction can be provided)

Even with notification, who's responsibility is it to follow up to make sure things didn't change? What if the owner doesn't maintain their system per NFPA 25, are they hiring a licensed company to perform inspections, are they keeping records, are they following impairment procedures (with the correct notifications to all the parties), are they maintaining the correct clearance below sprinklers and are you going to be there to make sure?

Another follow up - NFPA 25 covers some of these upon inspection, like clearance to sprinklers, but does not address "the adequacy of design". The inspection company would have no awareness that the in-racks were not installed but may be knowledgeable enough to be able to provide a separate write up stating their concerns.

Sorry for the long-winded response...what-if's are dangerous

RayJ

9/28/2022 09:15:14 am

It can all be summed up with the phrase - CYA

Franck

9/28/2022 09:28:45 am

As already indicated above, you should clearly mention the limits of the system you installed, in particular in terms of commodity classification and maximum height of storage.
What the client does afterwards is difficult to manage from your side.
Even with an ESFR protrection designed for plastic commodity, if they start to store open top containers, provide solid shelves in racks, store combustible/flammable liquids in the racks (I have seen all of these...), then where is your responsibility ?
Normally, their insurance company, if doing a good job, should follow this type of project and should direct them to the right choice. But at the end, its their choice !
People make wrong decision all the time.

So again, follow RAYJ advice and document the limit of your system. If the owner does not follow the rules... it's not anymore your responsibility.

CJ Bonczyk

9/28/2022 09:31:03 am

Our office has generated a multi-page owners commodity letter/report that is filled out by the owner/client. It is then signed by client and the acting GC. This lengthy checklist document is accompanied by a detailed scope letter at bid time. During design the information regarding everything from the life safety & general building code drawings, local codes & amendments, and NFPA/ AHJ requirements are all listed, along with everything regarding the design criterion. In odd storage arrangements we will provide a sealed letter by our FPE including all information above as well as any additional recommendations. Finally upon final completion and commissioning and walk through with the AHJ we provide provide the hydraulic placards and owners commodity placards and have them laser etched and secured to the risers and will take pictures of these for our record purposes with our as builts. This is all we can do to CYA for ourselves. If the owners states they they are going to purposefully violate code that is on them. I have had College Universities do this and tell their Insurance Underwriter we are going to do what we want. Sometimes you can only do what you are contracted to do, but document everything to make sure nothing falls back on you in the event something happens.

This is an ongoing battle with every existing warehouse we see. We have now instituted a policy when our inspection division that when we perform inspections at existing facilities in the reports they are required to provide supplemental documentation (if needed). If they see something obviously incorrect or questionable that while the system does not have an impairment and will not be tagged as such, it is recommended that additional sprinkler system evaluation should be performed by a FPE or RME-G to ensure code compliance. We think its best practice to at least notify the owner to say "hey, the sprinkler system works and is in good operation, but....." . At the end of the day the owner can chose to turn their head or not.

Brian Cockburn

9/28/2022 10:15:39 am

For higher hazard situations like warehouses it may be beneficial to involve the fire department early in the design process. Make sure they review the drawings during building permit and are aware of the limitations of the sprinkler system, and thus what can and cannot be stored. In theory, this means they will have something to compare against when they do annual inspections (I assume they will anyway) and could enforce compliance with the original design intent.

9/28/2022 10:20:44 am

@CJ BONCZYK

Excellent practice!!!

James Art, FPE

9/28/2022 11:53:58 am

Had exactly that situation:
Approved plans for a huge tilt up concrete distribution warehouse. The roof was concrete, designed so another floor could be added later. Rack storage including in-rack sprinklers,so the roof sprinklers were not as strong.
But the client only installed the roof sprinklers.

This was part of a big retail dept store chain, so the insurance co. reinsured this building. Lots of sprinklered stores in different places is a good risk, except for this one.

The fire was the largest single fire loss in Oakland history! About $31 million dollar loss.
It was so hot that the sprinkler pipes, with water flowing sagged like spagetti! The only thing left of couches, and other furniture was tacks on the floor, and springs with the temper gone.

Because the smoke went everywhere most of the contents not burned were smoke damaged, and had little salvage value,
And a big Business Interruption loss, all covered by Lloyd's of London.
About 15,000 sq. ft. of concrete roof had to be replaced.

Peter Glodic

9/28/2022 04:45:57 pm

I think its very clear. Of course there are the procedures others have already noted re: document, document, document and providing designs or advice on what you have been advised in writing by the client or determined in your consulting phase. Take file notes of the clients "perceived intentions", but here is the overriding factor, at least applied here in Australia, as a registered Engineer:

You have a Duty of Care to the public as an engineer under the Code of Ethics.

You MUST alert the relevant authorities. You cannot turn a blind eye.

I read a comment about not doing so and worrying about your own reputation - that is problematic at best, and unethical at worst.

Chris

9/29/2022 02:25:59 pm

Definitely document your exact design criteria which should be derived from the Owner's certificate they fill out. Personally I like to always have a sheet in my plans specifically for details and I also provide what my exact design criteria is and snips from 13 for reference.

I feel your pain though, I have run in to the exact situation more times than I care to count and it sucks.

10/14/2022 02:28:00 pm

I have had projects, with a Storage Space, and somehow the client can't nail down what will be stored, never mind how it will be stored. I often ask, then how do you know you need this storage area, and how do you know it needs to be this big?

How to Navigate 'Deceitful' Building Owners?

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