How to Find What is Required for FP Drawings?

5/10/2021

While working in a MEP/FP firm, we are expanding to do projects in other states and learning to understand the different state requirements for Fire Protection / Fire Alarm.

What is the best way to go about obtaining each state's requirements for what is required in an upfront submittal?

For example some states accept design drawings that only require denoting the hazard level whereas other require full design, calculations, and a written narrative. I understand and agree providing more detail is typically better; however, budgets can be significantly affected (negatively/positively) if only a hazard classification is required compared to a full design.

Besides prior knowledge from working in a different state or jurisdiction, what is the best approach in determining what is required?

Typically I start with searching what is required from the building code, but that does not always tell you what you need to submit for drawings, permit documentation, etc. It would be great to have a website that gives an example of what is an acceptable layout/design for each state.

Hoping to hear any suggestions / methods that others use to determine what is required.

Moderator Note: If there is significant interest in this topic, we'd be happy to open up a survey for areas that do require "full design" as an upfront submittal.

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6 Comments

Casey Milhorn

5/10/2021 08:22:06 am

I would start with the state level websites and follow up with phone calls. But the first step would be understanding how that particular state operates for code review. If you call and ask for the design manager, or a designer, at some of the local sprinkler subs, they might be your best source of info and can usually tell you what is required for "design intent" level drawings in their area/state. Some states you will get lucky and they will review everything at the state level which makes it easier. Other states have a mixture of state fire marshal, health department, and local code reviewers that all are looking for different things, and then it can come down to even which reviewer you get. Also, some states have "dead zones" where the local doesn't know how to review or doesn't have someone designated for this. A good rule of thumb is to try and provide the majority of what is required to be on shop drawings per NFPA 13, but dumbed down a little. Most of the time this will pass muster in most areas. Gathering a comprehensive list and info would definitely be a major undertaking but I could see a benefit if there was somewhere to share this info for use by everyone.

Tony

5/10/2021 09:03:05 am

NFPA 13 (2013 Edition) Chapter 23 will tell you the differences between "Preliminary Plans" and "Working Plans".

There really isn't an agreement across the entire community that outlines exactly what level of detail should go into preliminary plans.

As the engineer I would at minimum denote the hazard level for each area and see if a fire pump is needed. I have been told by other AHJs that your job as a FPE is to put any information that is shown on the building/fire code, all NFPA 13 information can be handled by the contractor.

Hope this helps.

CJ Bonczyk

5/10/2021 11:48:38 am

I would also strongly advise looking at each individual county and and city adopted code amendments and variances for both IBC & IFC where the project is located. For example here in Texas the standards used, minimum requirements, and additional requirements are vastly different from one city to another which will require a huge cost impact on what is required to be provided to the sprinkler sub at bid time. Also flow test requirements, water modeling, and so on is another issue.

Not to go off on a tangent, but I can't tell you how many times it has cost the client/owner more money because proper water supply homework and city code amendment requirements and variances were not fully verified by the A/E firm prior to going out for bid. Then GC's & Client's wonder why the submitted bid numbers are all over the board because no one is bidding apples to apples. Some people bid per plan and spec and say "well the engineer failed at their part so I'll just get change orders all day since we are not the ones who were paid to seal the drawings". Many times we see a plumbing engineer design the bid doc's and there will be major issues. Some sprinkler contractors will send in so many RFI's the GC and owner don't understand why all the items were missed by the design firm. Some sprinkler subs include everything required in the bid and they out price themselves but the bid was 100% accurate based on what the building needed to satisfy the codes and needs for the project. We beg of design firms to properly do their homework, speak with the AHJ (they are very helpful when onboard early in design phase). Conference call with the client and ensure everyone is one the same page because at the very least ensure that the bare minimums are on the preliminary documents sent out for bid (even though may not be fully designed) but at least meet all the minimum requirements and are accurate, so that an accurate bid can be provided and all parties agree on the project requirements.

Dale

5/11/2021 07:20:59 am

Experience and Trial/Error are usually how it goes. At an MEP/FP firm, they chose to not show piping for sprinklers. Had a project, and it was rejected, as we did not show the piping. Had to go back, add it, and re-submit. Some towns/cities, from experience; I know that they want to see the piping. Some towns/cities want it from the FP contractor, and are more concerned with Design Intent from the Engineer. There is really no one size fits all case.

Dan Wilder

5/11/2021 08:15:30 am

I would typically start with the minimum requested items as discussed in the below linked white paper:

https://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/professional-policies-and-position-statements/sfpenspenicetascetncees

If the design needs to extend beyond that for items like structural coordination, owner requested specific design, or general routing intent that is still acceptable (in my mind). Beyond that, the intent of the design starts down slippery slope of responsibility (as CJ's post above details) for design, coordination, and fiscal diligence between the installing contractor, their competition during the bidding process, and the end product in the eyes of the owner.

If the AHJ is requesting more than that, it sounds like the design needs to be handled by an installing contractor via delegated design. Very few Engineering firms (in my experience) want to get into the weeds at a coordination level between installing contractors.

Bobby Suarez

5/17/2021 10:20:52 am

In Florida, the fire protection engineering basic requirements are spelled out in the Florida Administrative Code (FAC) 61g15-32 RESPONSIBILITY RULES OF PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS CONCERNING THE DESIGN OF FIRE PROTECTION SYSTEMS. It is an expansion on the NFPA 13 "Preliminary Plans" requirements.

https://www.flrules.org/gateway/ChapterHome.asp?Chapter=61G15-32

How to Find What is Required for FP Drawings?

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