Advice About and When to Report Negligence?

3/8/2022

First - I really appreciate this forum. The discussions here are great - sometimes quick & easy and sometimes with a lot of depth. Also appreciate the variety of perspectives we each see the same industry. So thank you. Also - my question today isn't concerned about the people on this forum. It's clear that you care and are knowledgeable, so wanted to lay that out there.

At what point am I obligated to report negligence?

I've seen some projects out for bid that are five-story apartments with NFPA 13D issued on the drawings. I've seen hazard criteria that is (black and white) below code minimums out of NFPA 13. Underground pipe stretching 40 feet before stubbing up into a building. Not small things-big things.

Not just missing the mark - but clearly unprofessional and probably considered to be gross negligence by some lawyers (I am not one). They're signed/sealed and put out to the world for bid.

I don't see this all the time, but it does come up. I'm not an AHJ but my guess is they'd have much worse horror stories. These things can all be corrected - RFIs or plan review or with inspections. But at what point is something so far off that it's not a mistake and is actually something that should be reported?

Are AHJs handling these things behind the scenes and I just don't know about it?

I don't want to be the bad guy and I don't feel like it's my personal fight to stand in front of each state board and state a case why someone else missed something. But at what point do I become part of the problem if I don't report it?

Do states have anonymous tips for the license boards?

Has anyone gone this route with any real effect?

Again I want to be part of the solution, not the problem, but I also don't quite feel like this is my life's crusade either. I am curious how others would go about addressing this issue and what advice you might offer to a younger person in the industry. Appreciate the conversation, thanks.

Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe

14 Comments

schulman

3/8/2022 08:09:07 am

The responses here should be an interesting read ....

As someone whose job it is to do Preliminary System Drawings that are then turned into actual Shop Drawings and Hydraulic Calculations (... product data), I can tell you that I see a lot of problems come back to me for review. I also often see practices in the field that are questionable. I try not to leave it to the AHJ .. I try to help ... at the end of the day I'm glad I'm not the "signer" on some of these jobs.

Also, if anyone ever sees something wrong with my drawings, I would hope they would tell me.

Todd Wyatt

3/8/2022 08:24:24 am

Report possible Code deficiencies to the "building official" (AHJ) and/or the building department that issued the Building Permit.

If the project is in the Construction phase, the automatic sprinkler system (ASPS) design submitted for review for permitting was checked for general conformance (e.g. "where an automatic sprinkler system is provided ... whether the sprinkler system is required") but the actual design of the ASPS (including calculations) is typically a "deferred submittal" (see 2021 IBC 107.3.4.1 Deferred Submittal https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IBC2021P1/chapter-1-scope-and-administration#IBC2021P1_Ch01_Sec107.3).

The professional responsible for the ASPS is required to submit the deferred submittal to the AHJ for review. The ASPS is not permitted to be installed until the AHJ approves the deferred submittal.

Most building departments have websites that permit the public to confer with building officials including reporting possible Code violations. Here's a list of American State Building Codes :
https://www.buildingsguide.com/blog/resources-building-codes-state/

Good luck ...fight the good fight.

Jon

3/8/2022 08:29:43 am

The answer depends. Are all of the example mistakes you mentioned committed all by a single engineer? Or are you noticing mistakes from several different engineers? Licensed engineers are required to comply with ethics rules and that usually requires that they practice within their areas of expertise.

Unfortunately, fire protection falls under the responsibility of a mechanical engineer in smaller firms. Not that mechanical engineers don't know what they're doing, but it could be argued that fire protection is not within their area of expertise if they don't have enough experience with it.

Speaking overall, you have highlighted an issue that is known by many people and its a symptom of not enough qualified people in the fire protection industry.

I don't think what you are describing is true negligence, but rather mistakes or human error. I would continue to point out mistakes where you see them, and follow the proper channels (RFI's, etc.) to point them out. Include solid references from codes and standards in the RFI's to hopefully grab someone's attention and get the problem fixed.

Anthony

3/8/2022 08:41:55 am

I think there is a difference between code deficiencies and criminal negligence. At the end of the day you want to go home knowing you didn't put anyone in danger.

This site has tons of free resources to make every one better. Share some of the material!!

Dan Wilder

3/8/2022 08:45:50 am

For bids, preconstruction RFI's (this also provides insight to others that we are bidding against) or we address things in our inclusions/exclusions once we send the bid over.

If the job is ours and drawings are provided after the fact (depending on the working relationship with the EoR), we may ask for a short meeting to discuss items and give them the chance to revise their drawings and possibly save some face....issue with that is either they make changes and we get a change order or they don't change and we issue RFI's with cost impacts but in both cases, there is typically a monetary issue that causes some heartache.

There are some EoR's that just don't want to work with process and we just go the GC route and let things fall. It typically involves calling out very specific items out of NFPA to justify our position or to define why their drawings are incorrect. Most of our work is design/build anyway so we are ultimately responsible for the end product but if the direction is incorrect, the paperwork trail begins.

Ralph Foster link

3/8/2022 08:48:39 am

Your question does not have an easy answer.

If you are a licensed engineer, then you have a responsibility to report incompetence practice or gross negligence to the licensing board. This is problematic because incompetency practice takes a patter to establish - inn simple terms you need to refer multiple projects showing the engineer is incompetent. The issues should be black and white like your example of an NFPA 13D system for a n apartment building.

Gross negligence involves something that will involve loss of life. Like the building will collapse because the structure was not designed to support the load in the building. In our world, an example of this would be a manual standpipe for a high-rise building.

Another wrinkle is when the issue was an Alternative Method of Design the code official approved. There are specific procedures for this, but because of training or experience, I've seen some horrible Alternative Method code official have approve. And yes a code official can be referred to their licensing board too.

If/When if you make a referral to a licensing board (Engineer, Architect, Code Official, or Contractor) be sure you explain the issue in black and white terms because the person investigating is likely not to understand the code related issue.

Referral usually lead to blow back from the person you refer. Loss of future work, animosity, and getting a reputation for referring people. I have experienced all of these for referral I have made. I am OK with all of this garbage because I did the right thing protecting the public. As someone else said - Fight the Good Fight!

Jesse

3/8/2022 08:52:09 am

My state, Texas has a pretty organized state licensing board through the State Fire Marshal's Office with is a law enforcement agency. They investigate administrative and criminal matters.

However, I often see a lot of just completely wrong information in specification documents. I have one project right now a year behind because the architect indicated on sealed drawings the project would have a Class I Automatic Wet Standpipe. The project doesn't even require a manual standpipe by IBC or 14, much less an automatic. Suffice to say the architect doesn't know what any of that means.

In our world, words have meaning and being precise is important. Words like "storage, racks, flammable, etc" all have very clear yet narrow definitions to us, but those outside our world use in a utilitarian way. I've had automatic sprinkler plans rejected for OH2 designs because the building set referenced "storage".

I think its often that those not in our field don't know what they don't know. They don't know the difference between 13, 13R, 13D.

While negligence is out there for sure.. I think there is a lot more ignorance. Thankfully, we can help fix ignorance.

martin m

3/8/2022 09:19:00 am

"See something say something" we are professionals and have an ethical duty to protect the public

chad

3/8/2022 09:19:45 am

I emphasize with your situation as an AHJ. The PE licensing board's (in general) see this is a non-issue. Until it isn't. Like there is a long history and pattern of complaints. Or something was built wrong and it collapses or someone dies.

Otherwise... Oh its just a mistake, no harm no foul. They do not see it as negligence, at least not gross.

There are some RDP's/PE's that will stamp anything they can get paid for. Its sad. Unfortunately, unless we all harp on the really bad ones, nothing will change. I want to be clear, no one is perfect, mistakes happen and we shouldn't down on everyone. But call a spade a spade

Karsten Smith

3/8/2022 09:26:30 am

In the state where I live we are required by law to report anything that is incorrect to the AHJ. See something, say something. Which we do, often. That being said we do try to work with everyone to effectively communicate the issues before reporting to the AHJ. Most of the time it is ignorance like Jesse said not negligence. Notifying the AHJ clears the conscious and reaching out to the person who may or may not have made the mistake builds a great network of helping people in the industry. I always appreciate someone telling me I am wrong. That is how we learn.

Glenn Berger

3/8/2022 09:38:50 am

Be careful on the difference between gross negligence and just an error/omission.

Alex

3/9/2022 08:13:23 am

The last thing you want to do is call someone out for a simple error/omission. We all make mistakes and are on the same team, if you ask me. If its a one off case, I would just jump on the phone to discus with the engineer/designer.

If its repeated and gross negligence, I would notify the AHJ.

Manny Rios

3/8/2022 10:20:38 am

In our jurisdiction the AHJ is the State Fire Marshal. All plans for life safety systems are reviewed/plan checked by them, and any discrepancies are/will be addressed to prior to the release of said plans for construction. They have an open line of communication for questions/issues however minor they might seem. See something, say something!!

Pete H

3/8/2022 11:56:49 am

Depends your jurisdiction.

If you're in a jurisdiction that pins code compliance on the installing contractor as opposed to the bid plans engineer-of-record... then you don't report it. It's the duty of the installing contractor to catch these errors, RFI their bids, or adjust their prices for a code compliant system (and to suggest just letting their in-house guys VE the project.)

If you're in a jurisdiction that pins code compliance on the initial bid set... then report to whoever the initial bid set is submitted to as the AHJ if it somehow got past them with one of the scenarios you described.

Advice About and When to Report Negligence?

Leave a Reply.

ALL-ACCESS

SUBSCRIBE

COMMUNITY

YOUR POST

PE EXAM

FILTERS

ARCHIVES

PE PREP SERIES